Scott Dolan Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 Couldn't agree more, MG. That's why I said earlier, in response to Jim's art vs commerce statement, that art IS commerce. I think there tends to be a little too much high-mindedness, especially in Jazz and its many offshoot genre's, dictating that they are making art. Whereas any mass consumption Pop music is akin to a cheap plastic throaway toy found in the bottom of a box of Cracker Jacks. Wearing the label of starving artist as some kind of badge of honor while sneering at the more successful as imposters who never paid their dues. I find the concept sad, and born from conceit and envy. It's not as those Pop artists are selling a fraudulent product. A pseudo art, as it were. No, they just decided to pursue more fruitful endeavors rather than wallow in the self-flagelation some refer to as "suffering for their art". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Scott Dolan said: Couldn't agree more, MG. That's why I said earlier, in response to Jim's art vs commerce statement, that art IS commerce. I think there tends to be a little too much high-mindedness, especially in Jazz and its many offshoot genre's, dictating that they are making art. Whereas any mass consumption Pop music is akin to a cheap plastic throaway toy found in the bottom of a box of Cracker Jacks. Wearing the label of starving artist as some kind of badge of honor while sneering at the more successful as imposters who never paid their dues. I find the concept sad, and born from conceit and envy. It's not as those Pop artists are selling a fraudulent product. A pseudo art, as it were. No, they just decided to pursue more fruitful endeavors rather than wallow in the self-flagelation some refer to as "suffering for their art". I agree, but it's not invariably a matter of a decision to pursue more fruitful endeavours. As they used to say in the cowboy films, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. Take the case of George Benson; a guy who always wanted to be a singer. But he couldn't make it at fourteen or fifteen, whenever it was, so he became a great jazz musician. But when he could, he became one of the most popular singers. Now I don't think Benson ever SUFFERED for his art in any way, psychologically or financially. But what was inside him was a singer, not a great jazzman. People tend to be happiest doing what they think they do best. And so they should do that. Not necessarily exclusively; they've gotta feed the baby, powder the dog pay the rent etc. And the same truism's true of whatever other stuff they do to enable that; a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do and better make the best of it or have a miserable life, and I don't agree with anyone, who doesn't have to, having a miserable life. That's just plain dull. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 Art is not commerce, nor is commerce art, but art vs commerce is by definition an ongoing interaction. And in any ongoing interaction, bloods gets spilled, but bloods get mixed. lifelong enemies are made, but so are lasting alliances. There will be whores but there will also be angels, mercensries as well as heroes. Traditional identities can be raped, pillagged, and plundered, but they can also evolve, grow, and strenghten. You just never know what will happen when worlds collide. You can pull for the good guys on both sides, and when some days are better than others, just remember that some will not be all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 1 hour ago, JSngry said: Art is not commerce, nor is commerce art, but art vs commerce is by definition an ongoing interaction. And in any ongoing interaction, bloods gets spilled, but bloods get mixed. lifelong enemies are made, but so are lasting alliances. There will be whores but there will also be angels, mercensries as well as heroes. Traditional identities can be raped, pillagged, and plundeted, but they can also evolve, grow, and strenghten. You just never know what will happen when worlds collide. You can pull for the good guys on both sides, and when some days are better than others, just remember that some will not be all. On the contrary, while commerce certainly isn't necessarily art, art IS necessarily commerce. ALL artists want paying; they want a return on their investment. And if their work is presented to someone (OK, the right someone), they DO get paid, even if it's just living in the stately home of their aristocratic patron. That's commerce. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 Allow me to call bullshit on that one. There is always art that is made for the sheer satisfaction of itself, with no market motivation spurring it's creation, be it jam sessions among friends, painting for ones own amusement, quilting, knitting, not just "craft", can definitely be art, writing poetry in private journals, etc. Also plenty of people who create who would not mind entering the marketplace but who also are not in awe of it either. They can take it or leave it. So unless you change the definition of "art" to make it by definition something that is created only to be sold, no, art is not commerce. Notice also that "folk art" did not become "art" until it was discovered by commerce, Until then, it was doing just fine by itself, so was it not "art" until somebody tried to sell it? Again, here I call bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 1 hour ago, JSngry said: Allow me to call bullshit on that one. There is always art that is made for the sheer satisfaction of itself, with no market motivation spurring it's creation, be it jam sessions among friends, painting for ones own amusement, quilting, knitting, not just "craft", can definitely be art, writing poetry in private journals, etc. Also plenty of people who create who would not mind entering the marketplace but who also are not in awe of it either. They can take it or leave it. So unless you change the definition of "art" to make it by definition something that is created only to be sold, no, art is not commerce. Notice also that "folk art" did not become "art" until it was discovered by commerce, Until then, it was doing just fine by itself, so was it not "art" until somebody tried to sell it? Again, here I call bullshit. Sorry, 'folk art', even back in the stone age, was a commercial transaction. The work of the musician/singer/historian was so important to the clan they'd be enabled to get out of this or that in order to learn and get good at what they were doing. And notice, I did say 'if their work is presented to someone'. Sure, if you write poems for your own satisfaction, you can, but if no one knows about it, well, they don't exist in the wider world. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, JSngry said: Notice also that "folk art" did not become "art" until it was discovered by commerce, Until then, it was doing just fine by itself, so was it not "art" until somebody tried to sell it? According to what you just said, yes. Also, if you're going to use your "sittin' here strummin' my geetar" argument as proof that art is not commerce, fine. We'll compromise and say that art can be either personal, or for commerical gain. But me doing a paint-by-numbers doesn't actually make me an artist. Oh, and jam sessions with friends? Yeah, everybody has to practice to hone their skills. But why are they practicing? Edited September 10, 2016 by Scott Dolan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 Why are they practicing? To play better. Why do they want to play better? Because it feels better to play better. Do you have to play better to get gigs, oh HELl no. Does it feel good to get paid? OH hell yeah. Does it feel even better to get paid even more for providing a functional service and not for playing well? Before the cynical whoreism takes over, no. After it does, all bets are off. So I guess they are practicing to become cynical whores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 Are all your gigs pro bono? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 1 hour ago, The Magnificent Goldberg said: Sorry, 'folk art even back in the stone age, was a commercial transaction. The work of the musician/singer/historian was so important to the clan they'd be enabled to get out of this or that in order to learn and get good at what they were doing. And notice, I did say 'if their work is presented to someone'. Sure, if you write poems for your own satisfaction, you can, but if no one knows about it, well, they don't exist in the wider world. MG Dude, I would love to have you be my manager, but I'd be damned If I let you within 100 miles of my rehearsals If you were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 1 hour ago, JSngry said: Dude, I would love to have you be my manager, but I'd be damned If I let you within 100 miles of my rehearsals If you were. And actually, sorry to say I wouldn't LIKE to be within earshot of your rehearsals, Jim. But that's just me, not you. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 But you would be happy to make money off the band, assuming that there was money to be made. As would I. But if there wssn't, we'd both be happy to go back to what we were doing before, our own separate things, each getting along just fine without the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 Are your gigs pro bono? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Scott Dolan said: Are all your gigs pro bono? No, the ones that are really Inspiring often pay as much as five or six bucks. The whore gigs pay a lot more, because no self-respecting whore lets themself be a cheap whore, but those gigs also cost more too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 At least you have your standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 And the more standards they ask to hear, the more the gig needs to pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 Interesting. Monetary value on art! Sounds almost commerce-like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 Seriously, though, standards per Seare not a problem. Performing them on demand in the service of sustaining and enforcing a whole socio-cultural trapworld (thanks for the clarification, Karl), yeah, no "art" there, either in the making or the paying. Pure Product For Sale, enjoy your jazz and your cigars and fuck that bitch one time for me, boss, she's a fine one, she is! You know you're a true artist when you can buy coke at a discount from the busboy, because, hey, you're in the band and you play good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 2 hours ago, JSngry said: But you would be happy to make money off the band, assuming that there was money to be made. As would I. No, I wouldn't. I'm never happy with the idea of getting something for nothing. Fortunately, it never happens so I've never been in a position of turning down something for nothing. I suppose my personal verdict on that has to be 'untested'. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 Aw, hell. I'm sure we've all gotten something for nothing at some point in our lives. Maybe it wasn't a,fist full of dollars, but something... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 Oh, but you would be doing something for the money. You would be contacting other businesspeople to work out deals and venues and terms. You would be going new places and meeting new people in the interest of selling the band. You might even buy some coke from the busboy to give as a gift to somebody you wanted to get to want the band. You would be busting your ass to get money coming in the direction of the band through you, and that is exactly what you should be doing. Yes, you would be doing something for the money. Keep in mind though, that the band won't be giving a damn about any of that because hey, you got your job, we got ours, now let's both do our jobs as expertly as we can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 1 hour ago, JSngry said: Oh, but you would be doing something for the money. You would be contacting other businesspeople to work out deals and venues and terms. You would be going new places and meeting new people in the interest of selling the band. You might even buy some coke from the busboy to give as a gift to somebody you wanted to get to want the band. You would be busting your ass to get money coming in the direction of the band through you, and that is exactly what you should be doing. Yes, you would be doing something for the money. Keep in mind though, that the band won't be giving a damn about any of that because hey, you got your job, we got ours, now let's both do our jobs as expertly as we can. Oh, you DEFINITELY wouldn't want me selling you. I'm the world's worst salesman. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 1 hour ago, The Magnificent Goldberg said: Oh, you DEFINITELY wouldn't want me selling you. I'm the world's worst salesman. MG Yeah, probably not. You do seem more art than commerce. Those are two different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 1 hour ago, JSngry said: Yeah, probably not. You do seem more art than commerce. Those are two different things. No, not art. Just a lousy salesman. Couldn't even sell records! Only thing I could ever sell was economic policies I knew wouldn't work to not too bright politicians I did enjoy that MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 And who wouldn't? I mean, you've got an endless supply AND an unlimited market! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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