Rudy Van Gelder interview from 1995

[Big Beat Steve]

The photo I remember was black and white - and older, probably taken in the 40s or 50s  (sign handwritten in capital letters). But yes - same principle.

[Dmitry]

1 hour ago, Big Beat Steve said:

It's not about whether jazz was pop music, it's about whether people want the musicians to play tunes that the musicains either hate because they have been played to death (cf. High Society) or that just don't fit their repertoire (which says a lot about the "appreciation capacities" of the audience).

 

I think you're reinforcing what I wrote re:pop music, perhaps unwittingly. Public wanted [past tense, because jazz only accounts to 1% of the music sold in the US now, and the vast majority wouldn't know High Society from Hi-Fly] tunes that they knew and liked, i.e. pop[ular] tunes. 

I'm all for the rebellion and refusal to comply with the norms...if it's going to make the music better, expand the scope, or at least produce memorable compositions. If an artIste , creator, interpreter of all things hip refuses to perform the stale old standards, doesn't he/she have to replace them with something of greater musical value, create the new norm?   Understandably, the Sound of Two Seagulls Fucking maybe it, in the artiste's mind. But I'm not buying a record of that.  

[JSngry]

2 hours ago, Dmitry said:

 If an artIste , creator, interpreter of all things hip refuses to perform the stale old standards, doesn't he/she have to replace them with something of greater musical value, create the new norm?   

No. Why do you think they have this obligation?

[Big Beat Steve]

12 hours ago, Dmitry said:

I think you're reinforcing what I wrote re:pop music, perhaps unwittingly. Public wanted [past tense, because jazz only accounts to 1% of the music sold in the US now, and the vast majority wouldn't know High Society from Hi-Fly] tunes that they knew and liked, i.e. pop[ular] tunes. 

I'm all for the rebellion and refusal to comply with the norms...if it's going to make the music better, expand the scope, or at least produce memorable compositions. If an artIste , creator, interpreter of all things hip refuses to perform the stale old standards, doesn't he/she have to replace them with something of greater musical value, create the new norm?   Understandably, the Sound of Two Seagulls Fucking maybe it, in the artiste's mind. But I'm not buying a record of that.  

I still disagree. I don't think i am reinforcing what you worte - I am reinforcing what Jim said.

Again - for the question raised NOW it is of no importance today if the same thing happened in the past because jazz was more or less part of pop music then. The only thing of importance now IMHO is that as long as such requests happen (and according to Jim they still do) that grate with the musicians - totally regardless of whether this is a majority or minority thing in the public's taste - then it can also happen that the musicians react the way Jim did or the way they did in the past to discourage these requests (see the panels shown and mentioned). Same thing. And - again - regardless of whether 99% of the casual listening audience out there knew one requested tune from another - as long as the requests of the remaining 1% grate with the musicians then the situation exists. That's all.

As for "greater musical value", that's beside the point too. Those "standards" or "classics" do have their value (to those who appreciate those tunes) which does not diminish one bit because one band prefers not to play them. A given standard tune or "classic" isn't for everybody, after all, and the repertoire of band A does not necessarily overlap with that of fit band B by even one percent, even if both play within the same style. So why should any band or group of musicians be under the obligation to play what is not on their set list (or is somebody else's repertoire, in fact), UNLESS they are HAPPY to oblige (for their own fun too)? This has got nothing to do with "musical value". Those values are in the ear of the behearer (including those who perform them) and NEVER absolute values.

BTW (no mockery intended - I am really wondering ...), is "artiste" a new way of spelling this word? Or is there a finer connotation or difference of content to set it apart from "artist"? Some time ago I bought a (privately published) book on the history of early post-war country music, and the author steadfastly used the term "artiste" throughout. Looked quite odd in printing to me ...

 

[Jim Alfredson]

This thread has taken a strange turn.

[Teasing the Korean]

I don't want to continue to take the thread off-topic, but the health of an art form is determined by a nexus between the creativity of the artists,  a committed audience, and some sort of a cash-flow.  

Any musician accepting a jazz or pseudo-jazz gig in 2017 at a neighborhood watering hole who is offended if an audience member requests a tune like "Stella by Starlight" is living is a fantasy world.  

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

And that goes the other way as well, this fantasy world of assumed if/then.

[Dan Gould]

On 2/3/2017 at 1:31 AM, Big Beat Steve said:

 

BTW (no mockery intended - I am really wondering ...), is "artiste" a new way of spelling this word? Or is there a finer connotation or difference of content to set it apart from "artist"? 

 

I am fairly sure this is similar to the American pronunciation of the discount retailer Target as Tar-ZHEY. French pronunciation always implies higher class.

[Ted O'Reilly]

4 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

I am fairly sure this is similar to the American pronunciation of the discount retailer Target as Tar-ZHEY. French pronunciation always implies higher class.

But surely, Tar-ZHEY is in a mocking, ironic way....  No one actually calls it that, do they?  (They certainly don't in Canada:  the firm's failed escapade into our retail scene cost them billions when they ran home, tail between their legs.) 

[Scott Dolan]

It's not a new way of spelling the word, nor is it meant to sound pseudo-French. It's a genuine and accepted spellling of the word. 

How anyone in  touch with art isn't familiar with this word, or the spelling of it is pretty amusing, to say the least. 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Scott Dolan

[Big Beat Steve]

4 hours ago, Scott Dolan said:

It's not a new way of spelling the word, nor is it meant to sound pseudo-French. It's a genuine and accepted spellling of the word. 

How anyone in  touch with art isn't familiar with this word, or the spelling of it is pretty amusing, to say the least. 

Ah, getting wisecrackish again? I am quite familiar with the word as such (and certainly not only because I happen to speak French too) but in the contexts I named I just find it odd, to say the very least. Because to me it has connotations that simply are out of place and out of style, at least in the examples I referred to, and given that general writings about the subjects on hand seemed to have coped quite well without it for decades, even when the discussions got quite art-heavy. Of course, if you want to elevate things to some uppity level of art(e) - whereas Webster seems to narrow thisdown to an "often humorous or facetious" use -, then go ahead and be happy on that cloud up there ...

And, BTW, just to level things a little, you are welcome to lead this sort of "splitting hairs debate" in a language that is NOT your mother language. Now where would that leave you, I wonder?

Edited February 6, 2017 by Big Beat Steve

[Scott Dolan]

First you ask if "artiste" is a new way of spelling the word. Now you want to act like a douche while claiming you're familiar with "the word as such". 

C'est la vie is NOT in my mother tongue either. But I damn well know what it means and wouldn't be asking any cutesy questions about, "gee, when did they start spelling it like that" then later cover my tracks by claiming I knew it the whole time. 

And if you honestly believe that what I'm doing is "splitting hairs", then you have no idea what that means, either. 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Scott Dolan

[Big Beat Steve]

Ah, going snarky again. Plowing through others' statements. What you call cutesy was nothing but an attempt at asking a question in a halfway polite manner. And did I refer to an earlier instance where I came across this word or not? We are talking about areas of fairly popular art where this term looks out of place to me, and yes - the use of this term in THESE contexts was new to me and I still find it odd and still am wondering if all of a sudden it is all the rage to refer e.g. to pop "artistes".  Regardless of whether there are others out there who prefer to use "pseudo-French" in other fields of "art".  So ... you are known for putting things in other people's mouths that just aren't so but don't try to intimidate me. You just don't have the class or authority for that. C'est la vie ....

Edited February 6, 2017 by Big Beat Steve

[Dan Gould]

7 hours ago, Ted O'Reilly said:

But surely, Tar-ZHEY is in a mocking, ironic way....  No one actually calls it that, do they?  (They certainly don't in Canada:  the firm's failed escapade into our retail scene cost them billions when they ran home, tail between their legs.) 

Perhaps their experience in Canada makes it, of necessity, a way to mock a failure. In my experience (and yes I know people who say the alternate pronunciation) its just another way of saying the word, like artiste/artist.

[Big Beat Steve]

FWIW,

http://www.differencebetween.info/difference-between-artist-and-artiste

http://www.english-for-students.com/What-is-the-difference-between-Artist-and-Artiste.html

http://www.gingersoftware.com/english-online/spelling-book/confusing-words/artist-artiste

http://www.antimoon.com/forum/t3967.htm

In  short,"artist" will do, particularly if you stress the CREATIVE side of the artist's efforts (not the least important criterion in jazz, isn't it?). And as for the example I mentioned in my question, I still feel the author was unaware of how this term might sound pretentious (and certainly did NOT want to play down the creativity of his favorite music and artists. 

Nuff said.

[Scott Dolan]

2 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Ah, going snarky again. Plowing through others' statements. What you call cutesy was nothing but an attempt at asking a question in a halfway polite manner. And did I refer to an earlier instance where I came across this word or not? We are talking about areas of fairly popular art where this term looks out of place to me, and yes - the use of this term in THESE contexts was new to me and I still find it odd and still am wondering if all of a sudden it is all the rage to refer e.g. to pop "artistes".  Regardless of whether there are others out there who prefer to use "pseudo-French" in other fields of "art".  So ... you are known for putting things in other people's mouths that just aren't so but don't try to intimidate me. You just don't have the class or authority for that. C'est la vie ....

I didn't put any words in your mouth. You asked a clear question: is "artiste" a new way of spelling that word?

Then you went on to say how odd it looked in print to you. 

Now you're choosing to be too clever by half. Have a good day, brother. 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Scott Dolan

[Big Beat Steve]

Same to you.

[Dmitry]

On 2/3/2017 at 1:31 AM, Big Beat Steve said:

Again - for the question raised NOW it is of no importance today if the same thing happened in the past because jazz was more or less part of pop music then. The only thing of importance now IMHO is that as long as such requests happen (and according to Jim they still do) that grate with the musicians - totally regardless of whether this is a majority or minority thing in the public's taste - then it can also happen that the musicians react the way Jim did or the way they did in the past to discourage these requests (see the panels shown and mentioned).

BTW (no mockery intended - I am really wondering ...), is "artiste" a new way of spelling this word? Or is there a finer connotation or difference of content to set it apart from "artist"? Some time ago I bought a (privately published) book on the history of early post-war country music, and the author steadfastly used the term "artiste" throughout. Looked quite odd in printing to me ...

 

I will go on the limb and wager that I've been to more gigs in last 15 years than Jim. From Zorn to Dixieland...

Requests were happily taken by the latter, because that's what their music is based upon - the standards. If a delicate genius refuses to play the standards, and has nothing to offer as a replacement, but the Sound of Two Seagulls Fucking, i.e., TSOTSF, then no wonder that jazz music amounts to 1% of all music sales, most of it based on performing at least some standards as part of the program, I'm sure.

Re:utilizing the spelling ARTISTE.  Sure, I implied a higher level of artistic consciousness, separating the cerebral proponent of the music from a mere hack, who takes requests and plays the standards.  Like these three hacks 

 

[Scott Dolan]

http://everydaycupofenglish.com/2014/09/16/artist-vs-artiste-vs-artisan/

Seems to be nothing particularly elitist involved. More that people simply use artist as a catch all descriptor. 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Scott Dolan

[Dmitry]

20 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I don't want to continue to take the thread off-topic, but the health of an art form is determined by a nexus between the creativity of the artists,  a committed audience, and some sort of a cash-flow.  

Any musician accepting a jazz or pseudo-jazz gig a neighborhood watering hole who is offended if an audience member requests a tune like "Stella by Starlight" is living is a fantasy world.  

 

Very nicely and succinctly put! 

Remember the story of Coltrane walking the bar, and walking out of the said bar? Obviously his alternative to the bar gig was something we all know.  

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Dmitry

[Ted O'Reilly]

9 hours ago, Dmitry said:

I will go on the limb and wager that I've been to more gigs in last 15 years than Jim. From Zorn to Dixieland...

Requests were happily taken by the latter, because that's what their music is based upon - the standards. If a delicate genius refuses to play the standards, and has nothing to offer as a replacement, but the Sound of Two Seagulls Fucking, i.e., TSOTSF, then no wonder that jazz music amounts to 1% of all music sales, most of it based on performing at least some standards as part of the program, I'm sure.

Re:utilizing the spelling ARTISTE.  Sure, I implied a higher level of artistic consciousness, separating the cerebral proponent of the music from a mere hack, who takes requests and plays the standards.  Like these three hacks 

Raymond Chandler, in a novel's preface said, "Only a hack tries to break the mold. . . . A true pro tries to go as big as you can within the fold."

 

Applicable here?

[JSngry]

[ArtSalt]

On ‎05‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 10:23 PM, Teasing the Korean said:

I don't want to continue to take the thread off-topic, but the health of an art form is determined by a nexus between the creativity of the artists,  a committed audience, and some sort of a cash-flow.  

Any musician accepting a jazz or pseudo-jazz gig in 2017 at a neighborhood watering hole who is offended if an audience member requests a tune like "Stella by Starlight" is living is a fantasy world.  

 

I agree, and of course it depends on the intent of the gig, the musicians and intimacy of the venue. The last time I requested songs was at a Tom Russell gig and he asked did the audience have requests, and me being a fan, did! And actually they went down very well and he played them all.

The respect two ways: to the musicians and to the audience who have paid to come and see you and expect to be entertained. A little bit of give and take, yes go somewhere new and be creative, but also music works very much on repeated listening and being digested again and again over time.

A musician who disdains their audience is very precious indeed.

[JSngry]

Good to know. If I ever go to one of his gigs I'll ask him to play Rite Of Spring. Or You Are The Sunshine Of My Life.

Hell, Stella By Starlight, please, Boss!

[Scott Dolan]

Do people ask you to play standards outside of the Jazz genre?