Gilberto "Pulpo" Colon Jr.

[Larry Kart]

Anyone know this pianist-bandleader? I picked up a copy of his 2008 album "Hot Bread":

https://www.amazon.com/Hot-Bread-Pulpo/dp/B0018AAQQO/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1473969701&sr=1-1&keywords=hot+bread

and while I'm no Latin jazz or Latin music expert, so far it's knocked my socks off. Tremendous rhythmic density, plus a kick-ass recording job.

[Larry Kart]

 

 

[JSngry]

Are there vocals?

[Larry Kart]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Are there vocals?

You betcha. Backed by Jorge Maldonado and Eddie Rosado, Lead vocalist Hector "Papote" Jimenez is scorching.

Jimenez in action:
 

 

Colon, BTW, was the pianist for celebrated vocalist Hector Lavoe for many years. 

More Jimenez: 
 

 

[JSngry]

That does not suck.

Better watch it, one can get hooked on this stuff, and there's more than enoughto feed the habit.Not that that is a bad thing.

[Larry Kart]

"One can get hooked" is what I was thinking. The upfront presence of all the percussionists on the album makes me feel like my DNA is being rearranged.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Can't say Jiminez scorches me as much as some of the singers from the Dolminican Republic in the 70s/80s. Try finding some Joseito Mateo, (supposedly the real king of Merengue), Frank Cruz (singer with Felix del Rosario - who's thought of as the king), and Cuco Valoy. Plenty of del Rosario and Valoy available on downloads from Amazon.

Band is fine, but not exceptional. Try looking for Hermanos Aranga (USA, contemporary).

MG

[soulpope]

We should open a Salsa Thread ....

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I think Mike Weil, who knows more about this than I do, would say nothing we've talked about in this thread is Salsa

Don't let that stop you, though.

MG

[soulpope]

1 hour ago, The Magnificent Goldberg said:

I think Mike Weil, who knows more about this than I do, would say nothing we've talked about in this thread is Salsa

Don't let that stop you, though.

MG

For sure is not Salsa - but Salsa is in there for sure ;-) ....

@ Mike : probably you could initiate a thread which covers "Latin Music"  - believe me (and as I know some others) other would gladly participate ....

[JSngry]

"Salsa" has come to meant a lot of things to a lot of different people over the years, marketing term, cultural identity, political signifier, all sorts of things.

The Colon tracks, with or without vocals, definitely seem "salsa" to me in a general sense, as they are rooted in the Afro-Cuban street tradition and brought forward into an urbanized awareness, albeit infused with some elements from a later time. Elements which have been absorbed, not grafted, I would say. But "Salsa", in the 70s NYC/Fania/Latin Pride sense, no. this is all post-that.

But here's the Bird record Neal Hefti & Norman Granz would have made with Machito, minus Bird,of course. Damn linear time gets in the way, always.

 

 

 

[mikeweil]

5 hours ago, soulpope said:

For sure is not Salsa - but Salsa is in there for sure ;-) ....

@ Mike : probably you could initiate a thread which covers "Latin Music"  - believe me (and as I know some others) other would gladly participate ....

I hate the term 'Latin Music' - much too broad, about the same as 'Jazz'. I'd prefer to talk about specific bands and musicians. Just as many as there are recipes for sauce ... 

Edited September 16, 2016 by mikeweil

[soulpope]

3 hours ago, mikeweil said:

I hate the term 'Latin Music' - much too broad, about the same as 'Jazz'. I'd prefer to talk about specific bands and musicians. Just as many as there are recipes for sauce ... 

Understood .... actually used the even broader "Latin Music" in my earlier post to escape the "what is Salsa" discussion though .... so hope to see the one or other specific band and or musician in the future  ....

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

15 hours ago, mikeweil said:

I hate the term 'Latin Music' - much too broad, about the same as 'Jazz'. I'd prefer to talk about specific bands and musicians. Just as many as there are recipes for sauce ... 

Yes, wholly agreed. Felix del Rosario and La Negra are not doing any more the same stuff than Louis Armstrong and John Coltrane - but just as MUCH the same sort of stuff.

But the alternatives to 'Jazz' and 'Latin Music' are each dozens and dozens of genres and drawing definite lines between them also seems to me counterproductive, (or productive of pointless argument), particularly as influences spread widely. But I can live with genres, so long as it's understood that they're merely intended to let people know the general direction of what you're thinking about.

And this applies pretty precisely to 'African Music', too, though sometimes there are very significant cultural differences between different kinds of music (eg Mbaqanga and Mbalax).

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Also, some people are equally comfortable and happy working concurrently in different genres, for example, Sonny Stitt in Bebop and Soul Jazz; Cuco Valoy, who is one half of the Son Cubano duo, with his brother Martin, Los Ahijados and the leader and lead singer of Los Virtuosos, a red hot Merengue band. Hard to pin labels on people like this.

MG

[paul secor]

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 11:31 AM, mikeweil said:

I hate the term 'Latin Music' - much too broad, about the same as 'Jazz'. I'd prefer to talk about specific bands and musicians. Just as many as there are recipes for sauce ... 

I recall reading things by Willie Colon and others saying that "salsa" was something laid on their music as a sales gimmick, just as many musicians don't like calling their music "Jazz".  Semantics stop us from having a thread on this music, whatever it ends up being called. I'd like to learn more.

[JSngry]

Iirc, Izzy Sanabria was the guy who really got the word "Salsa" going. Yes, msrkrting, but also a cultural signifier.  Latin NY magazine was a focal point. If you remember what Hit Parade magazine was like when Don Paulsen was editor, it was kind of like that, equal parts fanzine, serious (enough) music writing, and market-targeted merchandising emporium. Whatever you want to think about marketing, that magazine and that word latched on big enough to where, by the mid 1970s you could buy Latin NY magazine at well-serviced Anglo new stands down here, read the record reviews, and then go look for the records at decidedly non-Anglo outlets.

Also, iirc, Sanabria was hooked up with Fania, art director, cover designer, something like that. So he did have a vested interest in selling the music and the culture.

Point just being that if "salsa" was meant to be a sales tool and a market  broadener/expander, it worked.Cultural exporting, to be sure, but in my case, I found it to be quite enriching on a non-financial basis, and I know I'm not alone

That's the plus. The flips ide is that it was very geo-specific, very much an NYC based thing, and mostly New York Puerto Rican at that (afaik, "Salsa" predates "Nuyorican"). And as Mike says "Latin" music involves multiple demographics and traditions. So, yes, "Salsa" created a focal point for pride and unification, but it was not going to hold up as a sustainable umbrella.

Still, as with "funk" in Black Music, you knew what it meant, you knew it when you heard it, and that was either enough to get you going onward or else leave you left with one more fad to forget sooner or later 

As for Willie Colon, hey...bad man!

he totally tricked out a lovely, touching, but "simple" pop song, klet Celia Cruz be Celia Cruz (as if he had and say in the matter!), and created a masterpiece, all without a dancing horse...

 

 

 

 

[JSngry]

https://youtu.be/R50FurOD_64

 

But then he made a really ambitious solo album that was decidedly not dance oriented, more "concert" than "salsa" and although it got critical raves, I think it kind of tanked comercially (and it didn't help that Colon did not have a particularly "strong" singinging voice). So if Willie Colon has reservations about the term "Salsa", that is wholly understandable.

 

 

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

12 hours ago, JSngry said:

Iirc, Izzy Sanabria was the guy who really got the word "Salsa" going. Yes, msrkrting, but also a cultural signifier.  Latin NY magazine was a focal point. If you remember what Hit Parade magazine was like when Don Paulsen was editor, it was kind of like that, equal parts fanzine, serious (enough) music writing, and market-targeted merchandising emporium. Whatever you want to think about marketing, that magazine and that word latched on big enough to where, by the mid 1970s you could buy Latin NY magazine at well-serviced Anglo new stands down here, read the record reviews, and then go look for the records at decidedly non-Anglo outlets.

Also, iirc, Sanabria was hooked up with Fania, art director, cover designer, something like that. So he did have a vested interest in selling the music and the culture.

Point just being that if "salsa" was meant to be a sales tool and a market  broadener/expander, it worked.Cultural exporting, to be sure, but in my case, I found it to be quite enriching on a non-financial basis, and I know I'm not alone

That's the plus. The flips ide is that it was very geo-specific, very much an NYC based thing, and mostly New York Puerto Rican at that (afaik, "Salsa" predates "Nuyorican"). And as Mike says "Latin" music involves multiple demographics and traditions. So, yes, "Salsa" created a focal point for pride and unification, but it was not going to hold up as a sustainable umbrella.

Still, as with "funk" in Black Music, you knew what it meant, you knew it when you heard it, and that was either enough to get you going onward or else leave you left with one more fad to forget sooner or later 

As for Willie Colon, hey...bad man!

he totally tricked out a lovely, touching, but "simple" pop song, klet Celia Cruz be Celia Cruz (as if he had and say in the matter!), and created a masterpiece, all without a dancing horse...

 

 

 

 

Thanks for that, Jim. Most illuminating.

Can't deny the Cruz/Colon is excellent but, like so much other New York material I've heard, it sounds too professional; highly schooled, well thought out and controlled, by comparison with the bands I've been listening to lately from elsewhere in the Caribbean, mainly the Dominican Republic, which sound rough and furiously wild. I'm wondering if, being from Puerto Rico, which is part of America, those guys were treated to too much jazz when they were young. Just a thought.

MG

[mikeweil]

I'm with you all - "Salsa" as a sales term, that's it, more or less. As long as we stay aware of this, it is okay. The members of this forum are minds critical enough to avoid the traps of such categories.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

MG

[JSngry]

8 hours ago, The Magnificent Goldberg said:

Thanks for that Jim. Most illuminating.

Can't deny the Cruz /Colon is excellent but, like so much other New York material I've heard, it sounds too professional; highly schooled, well thought out and controlled, by comparison with the bands I've been listening to lately from elsewhere in the Caribbean, mainly the Dominican Republic, which sound rough and furiously wild. I'm wondering if, being from Puerto Rico, which is part of America, those guys were treated to too much jazz when they were young. Just a thought.

MG

Sounds kind of "barefoot and pregnant"-y to me...at what point should people stop trying to be a part of the world around them? Stop accepting personal challenges? 

Fania certainly did develop an assembly line system, but no more so than any other label of any other kind of music that was having popular success and wanting more. And gems abounded, as did perfectly competent disposables.

Too professional, what does that mean? Too much jazz, what's that equation? For anything?

 

 

 

 

 

Also, the distinction between "Puerto Rican" & "Nuyorican" should not be taken lightly.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I don't know how to explain 'professional' in my terms to you, because you ARE

Only find yourself some Felix del Rosario, Joseito Mateo, Los Virtuosos, or even the 'old' king of Merengue, Angel Viloria, material and enjoy.

MG

[JSngry]

I know that stuff, believe me. It's native to it's environs and is beautiful because of that.

But the New York Salsa thing is also VERY native to its environs as well. NYC is not a sunny Caribbean island with Happy people shaking from the sunshine that never stops, ok? It's an island, yeah, but that's where the comparisons end.

Talk about "professional"...When I was contemplating relocating to NYC ca. 1978, I kept hearing about 'The List", which was something that a new arrival without already strong connections was given by friends who had just been in the same situation. It was, purportedly, a list of EVERY contractor for EVERY Latin gig in the city and Jersey. The saying that accompanied The List was that if you called every name on this list that you would be guaranteed of getting one gig, if only a sub gig for one night, and then if you could play, you'd get A gig, meaning an engagement or even band membership, depending on how things went on and off the bandstand.

There were so many Latin gigs in NYC at the time, literally more gigs than there were ready made players. It's not like that in the Carribean, there, there's more players than there are gigs (or were, no idea what it's like now). That's why cats would leave, to get more work and get broader exposure  Puerto Rico itself had its players and bands who were based there, but those were closed circuits, the cats who had those gigs kept those gigs, right?

Salsa as social identifier...you got all kind of cats coming into a world where work abounds, but to push though to the upper tiers, good intentions and happy dispositions are not enough. You gotta bring some kind of heaviness, be it vibe, chops, inagination, connections, whatever. And then, not just bring it, but have the chops to keep bringing it. AND do so with a relevancy that speaks to the ethnocultural concerns of your audience, immediate and extended. You damn well BETTER be professional to get through all that.

And dig - when "salsa" diminished as a commercial force and other forms came in (merengue among them) there was a LOT of grumbling about how we got away from bugalu, now we gotta do THIS shit, more basic party music with nowhere to push, just parrypartyoartyparty.

And yeah, I know, give the people what they want, etc. but the flipside of that is that no matter how exquisitly transcendant some purveyors of lowest common denominator are, without some kind of pushing from within, the party stops being about how delightfully somebody reminds us that 2 + 2 = 4, the party then becomes an orgy about the fact that 2 + 2 = 4, and, really, ok, we just gonna do this for the rest of our life, this 2 + 2 = 4 shit? Hell, we gonna act like babies, we gonna get treated like babies. Either way, where's the bottle?

So...whatever. Too comfortable, too formulaic, too generic, too assembly line, those I get. But too professional...that just means don't be as good as you are, be worse than what you're become. Lower the bar, Richard.

Really not feeling that, dawg.

[soulpope]

@JSngry : really do appreciate your views on this topic .... still believe - if having this facts/boundaries etc in mind - we should dedicate a thread to .... lets call it Music with Afro-Cuban influences ..... or how-/whatever .... simply to talk about artists, bands, records etc .... my 5 cent worth input ....