AOTW Sept. 18-25 - Jerry Gonzalez "Rumba Para Monk

[soulpope]

(CD Sunnyside SSC-1036D) …. Jerry Gonzalez (tp/perc) + Carter Jefferson (ts) + Larry Willis (p) + Andy Gonzalez (b) + Steve Berrios (dr, bata, timbales, claves) …. recorded @ New Yoork in October 1988

Motivated by an earlier (still ongoing ....) discussion about the problems to categorize music with afro-cuban influences I`ve decided to go forward with this recording as my (first) „Album Of The Week“ on Organissimo.

At the time of its release I was alread quite a dedicated follower of Jerry Gonzalez via his participation on the famous „Conjunto Libre“ Band led by Manny Oquendo, his stunning debut als leader on Kip Hanrahan`s American Clave label titled „Ya Yo Me Cure“ and two recordings for the german Enja Label, both of them already labeled as „Fort Apache Band“.

Jerry Gonzalez obviously had some affinity to the Music of Thelonious Monk, as all of the previously mentioned albums feature at least one track by the master. This Sunnyside release goes now several steps further and is completely dedicated to the Thelonious Monk Songbook. This looks like not to have happened by coincidence as there seems to be quite a cross connection between some of Monk`s compository ideas and Afro-Cuban aspects – for instance "Bye-Ya" (aka "Vaya!" i.e spanish "Go!") distinguishably represents a perfect vehicle as even Monk`s own original recording has an Afro-Cuban "clave pattern" foundation ....

It is Larry Willis and his very much un-Monk-like playing which proves (unexpectedly) being a near perfect way to look with a clear view at the Master`s Songbook - from a different perspective as pianist. Another unsung hero (of mine) Carter Jefferson is throughout outstanding on tenor saxophone and I tend to believe this could be - beneath „Stepping Stones“ with Woody Shaw – his best hour on wax/tape. Andy Gonzalez is the bass player you would wish for a project like this and both Jerry Gonzalez (beneath his poignant trumpet voice) and Steve Berios supply a myriad of rhythms via Bata, Timbales, Claves, Shekere, Bells, Guiro and drums.

This release from Jerry Gonzalez &“Fort Apache Band“ IMO turned out to be the mountain top of their recording career and after a couple of further recordings – including a sort of surprise comeback in 2005 with „Rumba Buhaina - The Music Of Art Blakey And The Jazz Messengers“ featuring a worthy hommage to another  jazz master - the band dissolved.

 

Edited September 18, 2016 by soulpope

[danasgoodstuff]

An AOTW I have and like, yay!  I love Monk, I love (good) tributes, I know exactly jack shit about 'real latin music'.  My test for a great tribute is does it tell me some thing new about both parties. This one did.

[mikeweil]

The one aspect about Jerry Gonzalez' approach that bothers me a little is the dominance of "Rumba" - there are so many other Cuban rhythms/dances that would fit one or the other Monk tune a little better. In one case, "Jackie-ing", he went so far as to change the rhythm of one Monk phrase to make it fit the rumba clave better - no need to do that. Don't mess with Monk's rhythms, please - they are an integral part of the tunes. 

Maybe I am a bit over-critical - I once had plans for a band with two horns, bass, congas, and timbales to play Monk tunes - at least a third of all known Monk compositions fit perfectly to Cuban rhythms. (There even is an uncredited clave player on the Prestige trio recording of "Bye-Ya".) But the horn players I approached wouldn't bite, there was no bassist around with proper knowledge of Cuban tumbao, and my percussionist partner fell ill (and passed away last summer). I would have done it with a wider array of Cuban rhythms. But what the Apaches do with their fusion of a mid-sixties Miles concept and rumba, is great. All the guys in this band were great. Steve Berrios ... he layed the foundation for all Latin/Jazz fusion drummers to come. 

[soulpope]

15 hours ago, mikeweil said:

The one aspect about Jerry Gonzalez' approach that bothers me a little is the dominance of "Rumba" - there are so many other Cuban rhythms/dances that would fit one or the other Monk tune a little better. In one case, "Jackie-ing", he went so far as to change the rhythm of one Monk phrase to make it fit the rumba clave better - no need to do that. Don't mess with Monk's rhythms, please - they are an integral part of the tunes. 

Maybe I am a bit over-critical .... 

..... but what the Apaches do with their fusion of a mid-sixties Miles concept and rumba, is great. All the guys in this band were great. Steve Berrios ... he layed the foundation for all Latin/Jazz fusion drummers to come. 

Hi Mike, I believe being critical and communicate these personal views is the main purpose to keep this thread/the weekly presented albums going ....

What struck me most with this album from the very beginning was the fact that the artist involved didnt need to disguise - simply the approach chosen was a excellent fit to their individual strenghts .... and vice-versa ....

With Steve Berrios on board this recordings obviously can benefit from the experience/expertise he build as a fixture of the Mongo Santamaria Band from the late 60`s onward btw his work with the Larry Harlow Orchestra, Hector Lavoe and others ....

 

 

Edited September 19, 2016 by soulpope

[soulpope]

One more taster .... :

 

[soulpope]

Hmmmmmh ... seemingly not much love/interest for this platter ....

Entrepreneur Kip Hanrahan - who was much in favour of Jerry Gonzalez in the early 80`s, resulting in the acclaimed "YaYo Me Cure" recording released on Hanrahan`s American Clave Label - cut ties later mentioning that "Jerry Gonzalez should concentrate on his capabilties being a world class percussionist instead wasting his time for being a second tier trumpet player" ..... any thoughts on that ?

[JSngry]

Very much a fan of Ya Yo Me Cure. Hanrahan might not have been wholly accurate in his assessment, but he was not wholly inaccurate, either.

I like all of the Fort Apache Band and related projects, but sometimes it seems like the "jazz" soloists aren't always as tied into ("into", not "to") the clave as might have benefited them. Perhaps this is inevitable, though.

[HutchFan]

I love this band, but I'm not familiar with this record.  

Based on the "samplers" above and soulpope's recommendation, I obviously need to check it out!  

[HutchFan]

7 hours ago, soulpope said:

Entrepreneur Kip Hanrahan - who was much in favour of Jerry Gonzalez in the early 80`s, resulting in the acclaimed "YaYo Me Cure" recording released on Hanrahan`s American Clave Label - cut ties later mentioning that "Jerry Gonzalez should concentrate on his capabilties being a world class percussionist instead wasting his time for being a second tier trumpet player" ..... any thoughts on that ?

Well, no one is going to confuse Gonzalez's trumpet-playing with Freddie's or Miles'.  

Then again, I don't think that it's a waste of time. Gonzalez's trumpet brings another element, another color to the band. I like that.

[soulpope]

1 hour ago, HutchFan said:

Well, no one is going to confuse Gonzalez's trumpet-playing with Freddie's or Miles'.  

Then again, I don't think that it's a waste of time. Gonzalez's trumpet brings another element, another color to the band. I like that.

Share your view .... Hanrahan obviously had an perfectionist approach and very strong views about other's capabilities .... still it bears a certain irony that "Ya Yo Me Cure" came to life under his guidance .... and featuring extensively Jerry Gonzalez on trumpet .... IMO the version of "Nefertiti" is a real beauty ....

Edited September 21, 2016 by soulpope

[HutchFan]

Sometimes you don't need to be a "world-class soloist" to make terrific music.  The Fort Apache Band is very much a band, and much of the appeal -- for me, at least -- is their ensemble sound. So I'm probably not tuned into the individual soloists like I would be with other groups -- or other soloists -- in other contexts.

For example, if I'm listening to a guy like, say, Lee Konitz, it's all about the solo.  With the Fort Apache Band, that's not where my ear goes. It's more of a total ensemble, percolating thing.

Not that the soloing isn't important with the Fort Apache Band. It's just not the center of it, the focal point -- like it is with some other artists and bands. 

My 2 cents.  

 

 

Edited September 21, 2016 by HutchFan

[soulpope]

1 hour ago, HutchFan said:

Not that the soloing isn't important with the Fort Apache Band. It's just not the center of it, the focal point -- like it is with some other artists and bands. 

My 2 cents.  

Worth considering thoughts ....

[HutchFan]

1 hour ago, soulpope said:

Share your view .... Hanrahan obviously had an perfectionist approach and very strong views about other's capabilities .... still it bears a certain irony that "Ya Yo Me Cure" came to life under his guidance .... and featuring extensively Jerry Gonzalez on trumpet .... IMO the version of "Nefertiti" is a real beauty ....

Yes, Ya Yo Me Curé is a strong record. 

But I will confess that I like their later records more -- Moliendo Cafe, Earth Dance, Crossroads, Fire Dance, Pensativa.  I think they're more focused on these compared to the earlier records like Ya Yo Me Curé, The River Is Deep, and Obatalá.

I think they sound tighter, more "locked in" (in the positive sense) on the later records -- more like a band.  (I guess this is the aspect of their music that I'm most drawn to.)

 

 

Strange that I've never got round to their Monk tribute -- or their Blakey tribute.  I think these are the only two that I haven't heard.

Edited September 21, 2016 by HutchFan

[soulpope]

1 hour ago, HutchFan said:

Yes, Ya Yo Me Curé is a strong record. 

But I will confess that I like their later records more -- Moliendo Cafe, Earth Dance, Crossroads, Fire Dance, Pensativa.  I think they're more focused on these compared to the earlier records like Ya Yo Me Curé, The River Is Deep, and Obatalá.

I think they sound tighter, more "locked in" (in the positive sense) on the later records -- more like a band.  (I guess this is the aspect of their music that I'm most drawn to.)

Interesting .... to me it's just the other way round - from "Ya Yo Me Cure" to "Rumba Para Monk" there is a roughness and inpredictability in their performances which IMO goes aboard thereafter in favour of the tighter group structure you're quire referring to .... like so often simply a matter of taste I suppose  .....

[HutchFan]

1 hour ago, soulpope said:

Interesting .... to me it's just the other way round - from "Ya Yo Me Cure" to "Rumba Para Monk" there is a roughness and inpredictability in their performances which IMO goes aboard thereafter in favour of the tighter group structure you're quire referring to .... like so often simply a matter of taste I suppose  .....

Absolutely.  

[JSngry]

What are the thoughts about Conrad Herwig's to "Latin Side Of...." albums compared to the Fort Apache Band? I actually kind of went into the first few a little cynical and low-expectation-ish, but was won over, resistance was futile. Then again, I've only gotten to the Miles & Coltrane albums.

Interesting, maybe, how both have strong E. Palmieri pedigrees, albeit from totally different eras & socio-musical dynamics. I think their musics reflect that as well, all of it.

[soulpope]

1 hour ago, HutchFan said:

Absolutely.  

Just an additional thought - I believe that the death of Carter Jefferson in 1993 had an huge impact on the Apache - not saying that John Stubblefield was a minor substitution ....

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

What are the thoughts about Conrad Herwig's to "Latin Side Of...." albums compared to the Fort Apache Band? I actually kind of went into the first few a little cynical and low-expectation-ish, but was won over, resistance was futile. Then again, I've only gotten to the Miles & Coltrane albums.

Interesting, maybe, how both have strong E. Palmieri pedigrees, albeit from totally different eras & socio-musical dynamics. I think their musics reflect that as well, all of it.

Do also know/have the Coltrane and Miles albums and actually like them quite a bit. If there are reservations so I believe that this music needs some more roughness btw ferocity - which actually was always the case with Eddie Palmieri's recordings .... Conrad Herwig has a more polished view on things and he misses IMO a strong(er) bass player - and by coincidence both Eddie Palmieri and the Fort Apache Band rightfully rely on the services of Andy Gonzalez ....

[JSngry]

Dude, I saw a Tito Puente "Latin Jazz All Stars" gig at Sweet Basil's (iirc) with Andy on bass and Jorje Dalto on piano. Andy was placed right behind Dalto's left side and you know how he always has this clenched-jaw eagle-like look of otherworldly laser focus while he plays, well man, he had that look trained on Dalto's left hand all night, and as Dalto moved, so did he. Between those two, Mario Rivera's fierce playing (and there's a guy who gets seriously overlooked, Mario Rivera), and being about 8 feet away from John Rodriguez' cowbell (people who don't know make jokes about cowbell, but people who do know, uh, don't!)....wow, talk about playing hard and playing for keeps, that was as much it as anything I've ever heard.

I find it telling (I guess) that Eddie's career evolved into a concert attraction rather than a club band. No idea what the NYC "Latin" scene is now, but if things are truly bad all over, when people do go out to dance, it's likely to a DJ. That changes everything. Not saying for better or worse, just that it changes everything.

[soulpope]

21 hours ago, JSngry said:

Dude, I saw a Tito Puente "Latin Jazz All Stars" gig at Sweet Basil's (iirc) with Andy on bass and Jorje Dalto on piano. Andy was placed right behind Dalto's left side and you know how he always has this clenched-jaw eagle-like look of otherworldly laser focus while he plays, well man, he had that look trained on Dalto's left hand all night, and as Dalto moved, so did he. Between those two, Mario Rivera's fierce playing (and there's a guy who gets seriously overlooked, Mario Rivera), and being about 8 feet away from John Rodriguez' cowbell (people who don't know make jokes about cowbell, but people who do know, uh, don't!)....wow, talk about playing hard and playing for keeps, that was as much it as anything I've ever heard.

 

I can imagine the atmosphere at his concert .... Andy and Jorge were (another) perfect match .... Mario Rivera is a fire eater .... and John Rodriguez is classy indeed - don`t forget, I`m from Austria where cowbells do have a completely different tradition ....

BTW was lucky enough to witness the Tito Puente All-Stars in fall 1994 at the Village Gate - this was recorded the year before :

Hilton Ruiz instead of Jorge Dalto and guest stars Paquito  D`Rivera + Dave Valentin .... but otherwise a lot of usual suspect are in there : Ignacio Berroa .... Andy Gonzalez .... Giovanni Hidalgo ..... and Mario Rivera ....

Edited September 22, 2016 by soulpope

[soulpope]

Interesting footage of the late 90`s Fort Apache Band and an excellent showcase for Andy Gonzalez on bass ....

Edited September 22, 2016 by soulpope

[soulpope]

As we spoke (also) about Hilton Ruiz, here another nice track from June 1992 with Andy Gonzalez (b) + Steve Berrios (dr) + Giovanni Hidalgo (perc) .....

[soulpope]

A final appetizer - at least from my side - regarding the current AOTW ....

Edited September 23, 2016 by soulpope

[mikeweil]

On 9/21/2016 at 1:58 PM, JSngry said:

I like all of the Fort Apache Band and related projects, but sometimes it seems like the "jazz" soloists aren't always as tied into ("into", not "to") the clave as might have benefited them. Perhaps this is inevitable, though.

I'd say it depends: 1- on the soloists, their background, what they feel comfortable in (some "jazz" horn players feel restricted by the more definite rhythmic structures of Cuban music (maybe because they're not familiar enough with them): 2- on the focus of the band as a whole. The Fort Apaches sound more like a jazz band to me, with the added color and possibility of Cuban rhythms, but really a modern jazz band between Miles and Blakey, and that's why they chose rumba as a basis, since that is open enough and closer to modern jazz rhythms (people like Elvin took some inspiration from bell and cascara patterns). Bands led by more Cuban based players use more definite rhythm models, where you have no choice but lock into clave, or you sound like some uninitiated guy meandering over exotic rhythms. The latter is possible, with great results - listen to the stylistically very different soloists guesting with the Machito Orqesta. But you have to make your choice. For players with a "Latin" background, the choice is clear, in most cases, they are used to lock into clave. For "jazz" players, it is more or less an adopted foreign language. I hope my idea comes through.

Edited April 10, 2023 by mikeweil

[JohnS]

I'm not a great fan of latin jazz so I normally steer clear of it.  But Jerry Gonzalez and the Fort Apache Band are another matter,  This is a very enjoyable record as are the other two or three I have in my collection.  I hear them as a jazz group with a added "latin",  And I like the way they easily slip into jazz time (at least on the records I have).  All the solos here are excellent.  Exciting music of lasting interest.

[JSngry]

10 hours ago, mikeweil said:

I'd say it depends: 1- on the soloists, their background, what they feel comfortable in (some "jazz" horn players feel restricted by the more definite rhythmic structures of Cuban music (maybe because they're not familiar enough with them): 2- on the focus of the band as a whole. The Fort Apaches sound more like a jazz band to me, with the added color and possibility of Cuban rhythms, but really a modern jazz band between Miles and Blakey, and that's why the chose rumba as a basis, since that is open enough and closer to modern jazz rhythms (people like Elvin took some inspiration from bell and cascara patterns). Bands led by more Cuban based players use more definitie rhythm models, where you have no choice but lock into clave, or you sound like some uninitiated guy meandering over exotic rhythms. The latter is possible, with great results - listen to the stylistically very different soloists guesting with the Machito Orqesta. But you have to make your choice. For players with a "Latin" background, the choice is clear, in most cases, they are used to lok into clave. For "jazz" players, it is more or less an adopted foreign language. I hope my idea comes through.

It does, and that's part of the motivator for me to start the Chombo Silva thread. There was a guy who "got" the jazz vocabulary, but spoke it with an strong, intrinsic clave "accent", pretty awesome to me, that thing is, upsets me in ways I don't understand.

But Chombo grew up in Cuba, right? The Fort Apache Band collectively had a totally different life, so...evolution.