Rooster_Ties Posted April 17, 2003 Report Share Posted April 17, 2003 (edited) OK, here's a topic I can really get into, cuz this drives a hell of a lot of my purchasing decisions of late. Over the last 2 years especially, I can't seem to get enough of trumpeters from the 60's, who were basically hardboppers at heart (and nearly all their own releases and tunes were basically 'hardbop' in nature), and who were often very forward-thinking hardboppers -- AND, who recorded as sidemen on bunches of really progressive dates, like these... Lee Morgan on...Larry Young: "Mother Ship" (1969) <---- Double Wow!!!Andrew Hill: "Grass Roots" (1968) <---- Wow!!!Andrew Hill: "Lift Every Voice" (1969) <---- Wow!!!Elvin Jones: "Prime Element" (1969)Grachan Moncur III: "Evolution" (1963)Freddie Hubbard on...Ornette Coleman: "Free Jazz" (1960)Eric Dolphy: "Out to Lunch" (1964)Andrew Hill: "Compulsion" (1965) <---- Wow!!!Andrew Hill: "One for One" (the 1965 half of this double-LP) <---- Wow!!!Bobby Hutcherson: "Components" (1965)Bobby Hutcherson: "Dialogue" (1965)Sam Rivers: "Contours" (1965) <---- Wow!!!Wayne Shorter: "All Seeing Eye" (1965) <---- Wow!!!Woody Shaw on...Chick Corea: "Complete 'Is' Sessions" (1969)Stanley Cowell: "Brilliant Circles" (1969) <---- Wow!!!Eric Dolphy: "Iron Man" (1963)Andrew Hill: "Grass Roots" (1968) <---- Wow!!!Andrew Hill: "Lift Every Voice" (1969) <---- Wow!!!Andrew Hill: "Tomorrow is Now!!" released as --> "Passing Ships" (1969) <---- Wow!!!Jackie McLean: "'Bout Soul" (1967)Jackie McLean: "Demon's Dance" (1967)McCoy Tyner: "Expansions" (1968)Tyrone Washington: "Natural Essence" (1969) <---- Wow!!!Larry Young: "Unity" (1965) <---- Wow!!!Charles Tolliver on...Gary Bartz: "Another Earth" (1968)Andrew Hill: "Dance with Death" (1968) <---- Wow!!!Andrew Hill: "One for One" (one of the 1969 sessions only) <---- Wow!!!Jackie McLean: "Action" (1964) <---- Wow!!!Jackie McLean: "It's Time" (1964) <---- Wow!!!Jackie McLean: "Jacknife" (1966) <---- Wow!!!I know a few of these albums aren't quite as far "out" as most of the others, particularly the Jackie McLean albums with Tolliver - but Tolliver's playing is so progressive with McLean, I had to include it here. Several months ago I had the McLean Mosaic out, after not having heard it in over a year - and I was blown away at how free many of Tolliver's solos were. In some cases, I seriously thought I might have heard some Ornette (on trumpet!!!) influence on Tolliver. Or, at least some of what Tolliver was doing reminded me of the freedom of Ornette on trumpet. Does anyone else here get off on this shit as much as I do!!!???? (Sorry, I had an "Aric" moment there for a just a second. ) If only there were more albums like this in the vaults. Some more stuff that hits me the same way... Richard Williams on half the tracks (the 'progressive' ones) on Booker Ervin's "The In Between", does the same thing for me too. Michael Ray's work with Sun Ra - cuz he's kind of an "inside/outside" trumpet player (well, he's more "outside" than "inside", but it tickles the same part of my brain as the trumpet stuff listed up above.) Tim Hagans (sometimes), cuz he's done a project or two that's a little bit more 'out', but he's still basically a hardbop guy, mostly. You get the idea. I'm trying to think of some others. What/who am I forgetting??? Edited November 13, 2005 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFrank Posted April 18, 2003 Report Share Posted April 18, 2003 The only one that I can think of right now is Donald Byrd's "Free Form". Not really THAT "out", but for him it is. And for a lineup that includes Wayne Shorter and Herbie Hancock(his first recording?) in 1961, it's definitely "progressive". My only question with your list is that I usually think of Tolliver as a progressive, not a hard bopper. Interesting topic, though. I look forward to seeing what other people come up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted April 18, 2003 Report Share Posted April 18, 2003 Freddie Hubbard alsp played mean trumpet on John Coltrane's 'Ascension' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted April 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2003 Oh yeah, I had *completely* forgotten about Byrd's "Free Form". In fact, I think that particular tune ("Free Form", if I remember right), is simply one of the earliest 'free'-ish tunes in the entire BN catalog!! I remember, when I first heard that album - and that tune in particular (which I remember as being much more 'free' than the rest of the album), I simply couldn't believe what my eyes were seeing on the back cover. "Was this really recorded in 1961????" - I asked myself. The tune is credited to Byrd, but I always thought that the sidemen had the bigger hand in this case. Good suggestion!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent, Paris Posted April 18, 2003 Report Share Posted April 18, 2003 Jackie McLean says he played on free forms as soon as 1956 with Donald Byrd when both of them were part of George Wallington quintet ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundsound Posted April 18, 2003 Report Share Posted April 18, 2003 Johnny Coles with Mingus- Maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted April 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2003 (edited) I thought of another one.... Kenny Dorham, on Andrew Hill's "Point of Departure" (1964) And, in a sorta weird way, there's also this date!! Vincent McEwan, on John Patton's "Boogaloo" (1968) Not really as 'out' as Patton ever got (later on), and if I remember right, it's the tenor player, Harold Alexander, that is the most 'out' thing on "Boogaloo". But, still, McEwan is basically a hardbopper playing in a mildly 'creative' context, albeit one that grooves!! And actually, Patton's "Boogaloo" makes be wish there was more McEwan on record, in small group contexts where he could solo. He's nothing that'll change your world, not even in a "Tyrone Washington"-kind of way (not even a little bit). McEwan's just a curious and occasionally interesting player (at least from what little I've heard), on what is my probably my *favorite* Patton album!!! PS: I think Patton's "Boogaloo" might make for a really interesting and curious "Album of the Week". Anyone else with this album concur??? Edited April 18, 2003 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted April 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2003 (edited) By the way, I tried to make the case for Vincent McEwan back on the BNBB. I realize, he's only on like ONE real jazz date in his whole entire career, John Patton's "Boogaloo" - which was a session that was still in the can until like 1999!! ( ) Still, from that one date, I do think he's a curriously interesting trumpet player. Sure, not at all compared to the 'big' names (and even the 'little' names!!). But, I do really think that he's far more interesting than his incredibly modest output would indicate. (I mean, he's like 10 times more obscure that Tyrone Washington!!) And no, I'm not trying to make any kind of case for McEwan as being some long, lost 'great' trumpeter. Just this: that he's far more interesting than I'd ever expect, for a guy who recorded on one and only one "real" (meaning "heavy" and somewhat "progressive") jazz album in his entire career. And, on an album that didn't even see the light of day until 30+ years after it was recorded. Come on - all of you who own "Boogaloo", admit it. Based on his prior track record, and limited discography - he's a better player than you would have thought, no?? ( OK, I probably won't get anyone to agree with me on this one, but after Chuck dissed Charles Tolliver, I think I'm maybe up for a couple loosing battles!! ) ===== PS: The AMG says McEwan is on one other album, that looks like it might also be a "real" jazz album. Valerie Capers: Portrait in Soul. Hardly much of a review, it only says: "Rare septet, all Capers originals. Worth searching for." Here's the AMG bio for her too: Valerie Capers Edited April 18, 2003 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted April 18, 2003 Report Share Posted April 18, 2003 Yes, McEwan was a pleasant suprise on Big John's 'Boogaloo'. Almost an avante-garde Melvin Lastie ! Great list ! Apart from whetting my apetite to hear Toliver on the (just ordered) King pressing of 'It's Time' (another 'wow!') the only additions I can think of at this time are Woody Shaw again on Corea's 'Tones For Joans Bones'/'Inner Space' and Hubbard on 'Breaking Point' and 'Blue Spirits', which both have at least partial experimental content. Oh, and Alan Shorter's 'Orgasm' too, of course ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted April 18, 2003 Report Share Posted April 18, 2003 Oh .... and not forgetting Tolliver's work on Roy Ayers 'Virgo Vibes' either ! B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted April 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 (edited) Listened yesterday to Andrew Hill's "Dance With Death" and side one of the 2nd LP of Hill's "One For One", and I'm really finding this side of Tolliver's work to be very interesting. With Hill, Tolliver doesn't sound nearly as much like the "Charles Tolliver" I'm so drawn to in Tolliver's own recordings, or even on most of Tolliver's other sideman work. Edited April 30, 2003 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonym Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 Tommy Turrentine on McLean's 'A Fickle Sonance'. BTW does anybody else find the RVG recording of this a bit 'bright', at times unbearably so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted April 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 Hadn't realized that 'A Fickle Sonance' was that much of a progressive of an album (it's one of the few McLean BN discs I don't own). No reason for not owning it - just haven't managed to get it yet. No excuse either, since it's an RVG now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonym Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 Although the rhythm section is fairly conventional, ie. Billy Higgins, Sonny Clark and Butch Warren, there are at least a couple of tunes that lean away from the standard hard bop fayre. unusual constuction of tunes, eg. 40 bars., and a move away from 'ryhthm' changes toward modes. not as 'out' as many of the selections above but definately a transitional album that attempts to incorporate some elements of Ornette. recorded less than it's more 'progressive' successor 'Let Freedom Ring' i think it hints at what McLean is about to embark upon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 As to your point. The RVG of "A Ficle Sonance" is UNLISTENABLE due to it's extreme brightness. I'm a total RVG fan and supporter and think his remastering is the best overall. However, this one is horrible. I love the music on that session, but the frequencies are so grating to my ears I can't listen to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted May 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 (edited) (And not too suprisingly) I probably ought to add Jimmy Wood's "Conflict to this list, for the contribution of Carmell Jones. Anybody know of any other somewhat 'progressive' dates that Carmell was on??? I can't think of any... Edited November 13, 2005 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted May 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 (edited) Up, for my "Carmell Jones" question (see my post immediately above this one). Also, I was listening to Andrew Hill's "Point of Departure" just the other day (for the first time in quite a long while, actually). Did Kenny Dorham ever record on anything else even half as 'progressive' as "Point of Departure"??? In other words, is "PoD" Dorham's one and only "progressive" recording??? Also, did Blue Michell ever do any 'progressive' dates??? Thanks!!! Edited May 29, 2003 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonym Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 Joe Henderson --- 'Our Thing'??? does that count? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted May 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 Joe Henderson --- 'Our Thing'??? does that count? Yeah, that does count - forgot about that one!!! Hell, Andrew Hill's on it too - so that tips it over in the progressive corner for sure!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Hawkins Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 In'n'Out might count, I suppose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Skid Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 I remember reading (and bookmarking) this over a year ago, and I still go back to it after all that time. The opening post contains so many of my favorite Blue Notes, and the few that I don't have are already on the want list. Rooster, I think you're really on to something here, and I'm looking forward to more responses to this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Shearn Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 sure, I'll bring this back up for discussion. Really? "In N Out" as a progressive album with a trumpeter doesn't sound all that out to me. "Our Thing" the title track, yeah with that modal stretch, but as far as Joe Henderson goes on classic Blue Note goes "Inner Urge"(especially) and "Mode for Joe" sound way more "out" to me. And Freddie on Herbie's "The Egg" is pretty out there too. That tune for me is just kinda, LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMP Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 (edited) How about Joe Gordon on his "Contemporary" album? Edited November 13, 2005 by DMP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
md655321 Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 How about that Miles Davis dude with that one quintet with Wayne Shorter and some other guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 Donald Byrd on that Sam Rivers LP that wasn't released at the time - can't remember the title. It also had Julian Priester and James Spaulding. I have always liked that one very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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