"Mingus Three" pianists

[Larry Kart]

Based on the personnel listings of those LA-area jam/session concert recordings, and some studio dates of the time as well, my sense is that  the Central Avenue etc. scene was fairly well integrated for the U.S. at  that time. Art Pepper speaks of this in "Straight Life," saying that it was all about the music or something of the sort, but it's hard to take Art's word for anything at face value. Also, perhaps in line with Mike Weil's post above, I think that the L.A. scene of the time understandably sorted players out primarily on  a "Who do I feel comfortable with?" stylistic basis. One was in the club if one knew the right tunes and the hip harmonic and rhythmic patterns  --  these being transmitted in part through contact with Bird et al. while Bird was there  and playing but probably for the most part through the not yet widely distributed Dial and Savoy recordings. IIRC, I believe Ross Russell has stated (like Pepper, not the most reliable source, though I trust Russell on this) that in the LA area these and the then-few similar bop recordings were available primarily if not exclusively at his local record store, and lots of musicians hung out there to check them out. Compared to NYC bop of the time, one shaping difference then might be that NYC players could check out key figures in clubs and the occasional concert, while in California information primarily came from the aforementioned recordings, what one's California colleagues were playing/how they were developing, with some regional stuff perhaps filtering in, a la what Jim mentioned above. 

P.S. Criss, Teddy, Edwards, and Harold Land too, plus at least one other San Diego guy, supposedly top-level trumpeter Froebel Bingham, who reportedly never played a gig outside that city. (There's at least one recording date from him, with Land, from 1949, on that "Black California" set; I need to check it out.) Actually, both Criss and Land may be examples of what I alluded to above -- both men clearly responding to bop but retaining some more or less Swing-Era (a la the Savoy Sultans' Rudy Williams, in Criss's case) habits longer than most of their NYC counterparts would or did. Of course, in Criss' case that may have just been because of who Criss was as a man and musician, but with Land I think that in addition to temperament it was the result of his California relative semi-isolation. I think he must have been an admirer early on of Coleman Hawkins (of course), Herschel Evans, Dick Wilson, and Chu Berry; that he retained much of his personal translation of that fuzzy-warm vibe for so long is among the reasons I like Land. In any case, if one could have whisked the young Land off the NYC in the late '40s, I don't think he would have  been the same player in, say, 1955-7 that he turned out to be.

P.P.S. Yes, Wardell too for Land, Dexter maybe not so much.

[JSngry]

And, you know, cats would travel, road bands being the social media of their day, perhaps.

[mikeweil]

6 hours ago, JSngry said:

Cats like Sonny Criss and Teddy Edwards sounded like they were just asking to be bitten, so quickly and fully were they formed.

• Of course - the new style was in the air, the preceding generation's influences were there, all over the country. So it kind of confirmed what they were experimenting with.

6 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

..... plus at least one other San Diego guy, supposedly top-level trumpeter Froebel Bingham, who reportedly never played a gig outside that city. (There's at least one recording date from him, with Land, from 1949, on that "Black California" set; I need to check it out.) 

Harold Land All Stars : Froebel Brigham (tp) Russell B. Campbell (tb) William Doty (as) Harold Land (ts) Fred Jackson (p) David Dyson (b) Leon Petties (d)

Los Angeles, April 25, 1949

SLA524	Outlandish	Savoy SJL2215
SLA525	Swingin' on Savoy	-
SLA526	San Diego bounce	-       , Regent 1020
SLA527	I'll remember April	-       , Regent 1020

 

Will have to give that a listen tomorrow ...

Only other entry Brigham has in Lord:

Pete Peterson And His Orchestra : Pete Peterson (ts) unknown bar, p, b and d, unknown tp-1, as-1 added. Froebel Brigham (vcl)

Los Angeles, c. early 1950's

TX-R6	Rippin' with Pete (1)	Top Hat 1010
TX-R7	Little baby (fb vcl)	-

Edited April 18, 2017 by mikeweil

[mikeweil]

Just listened to the four Harold Land sides - Land is the only soloist, so Froebel Brigham probably is one of the many great players never documented on record ... Patricia Willard's liner notes tell of his good reputation. The band on this Savoy date actually was Brigham's, graciously loaned for the session, and the leader even left San Diego for L.A, to record with Land.

[Niko]

there's apparently one more session of a similar band including Brigham, tracks 17-20 on the Crown Prince Waterford Classics CD (available on Spotify)

1949.06.04 -- US: California: Los Angeles - recordings for King - (Charles) Crown Prince Waterford, Harold Land All-Stars (Dave Froebel Brigham, William Doty, Harold Land, John L. Jackson, Stanley Joyce, Leon Pettis)

[Larry Kart]

Listened to the Brigham-Land tracks. No clue there as to what Brigham was like; Land is the only soloist -- three "jump" numbers and a ballad. Land sounds kind of like Corky Corcoran, not much sense of who he would become, though what is there is not incompatible with his eventual journey to a personal style.

[mikeweil]

These are the Crown Prince Waterford tracks:

Charles Waterford Acc By Harold Land All Stars : Charles Waterford (vcl) acc by Dave Froebel Brigham (tp) William Doty (as) Harold Land (ts) John L. Jackson (p) Stanley Joyce (b) Leon Petties (d)

Los Angeles, June 4, 1949

K5734	All over again	Classics (F)5024 [CD]
K5735	You turned your back on me	King 4310, Classics (F)5024 [CD]
K5736	Get away from my door	Classics (F)5024 [CD]
K5737	Pow-wow boogie	King 4310, Classics (F)5024 [CD]

 

Typical for the Lord database - they do not show up when you click on Froebel Brigham because with the second name "Dave" it's a different person! 

Ordered the Classics CD, I'm curious. There were two copies for sale on amazon.de, one for € 7.50, and one for € 160 - guess which one I chose ...

[Big Beat Steve]

Considering how much dust this Central Avenue subject seems to stir up here, just a reminder that the

"Central Avenue Sounds" book by Clora Bryant et al. (University of California Press)

is not the worst source for background info on the happenings on Central Avenue in the 40s etc. and should complement the "Black California" sections of the West Coast Jazz books by Ted Gioia and Robert Gordon (for those so inclined) rather well.

Additionally, there is an online source somewhere connected with the makings of the Central Avenue Sounds book that has quite a few more interview files with musicians to read up on. Can't find the link now but hopefully it is still up (googling should help). Reading might be a bit long, though (some of those transcribed oral history recollections invariably tend to ramble on and on and on and get a bit unfocused here and there). 

Edited April 20, 2017 by Big Beat Steve

[Quasimado]

8 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Considering how much dust this Central Avenue subject seems to stir up here, just a reminder that the

"Central Avenue Sounds" book by Clora Bryant et al. (University of California Press)

is not the worst source for background info on the happenings on Central Avenue in the 40s etc. and should complement the "Black California" sections of the West Coast Jazz books by Ted Gioia and Robert Gordon (for those so inclined) rather well.

Additionally, there is an online source somewhere connected with the makings of the Central Avenue Sounds book that has quite a few more interview files with musicians to read up on. Can't find the link now but hopefully it is still up (googling should help). Reading might be a bit long, though (some of those transcribed oral history recollections invariably tend to ramble on and on and on and get a bit unfocused here and there). 

Probably the UCLA Library archives - http://guides.library.ucla.edu/c.php?g=180281&p=1187918

Q.

[Big Beat Steve]

Maybe. it was a freely accessible site that contains more transcribed inteviews beyond those included in the book I cited (but referring to that Oral history project). I cannot remember having had to go through that many steps in the "Oral history" section before being able to access the transcripts. But the site may have been changed since i went there quite a few years ago.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Big Beat Steve

[Niko]

here is a more direct link (and that was the site)

[Big Beat Steve]

Yes, that looks more like it. Thanks for the reminder.

[mikeweil]

On 19.4.2017 at 5:38 PM, mikeweil said:

These are the Crown Prince Waterford tracks:

Charles Waterford Acc By Harold Land All Stars : Charles Waterford (vcl) acc by Dave Froebel Brigham (tp) William Doty (as) Harold Land (ts) John L. Jackson (p) Stanley Joyce (b) Leon Petties (d)

Los Angeles, June 4, 1949

K5734	All over again	Classics (F)5024 [CD]
K5735	You turned your back on me	King 4310, Classics (F)5024 [CD]
K5736	Get away from my door	Classics (F)5024 [CD]
K5737	Pow-wow boogie	King 4310, Classics (F)5024 [CD]

 

Typical for the Lord database - they do not show up when you click on Froebel Brigham because with the second name "Dave" it's a different person! 

Ordered the Classics CD, I'm curious. There were two copies for sale on amazon.de, one for € 7.50, and one for € 160 - guess which one I chose ...

That CD arrived yesterday - it's good! Waterford was one of the better singers in that style, the bands are vey good, and all three horns on the session with Brigham get their spots. The trumpeter has a bright, clear sound, and his short solos and obligatos show technical profiiency and lots of potential. It's a pity this man never had his own session. If one wants to get an impression of this man, the CD is a must, I'm afraid. Anyone who likes Jay McShann (Waterford replaced Walter Brown in his band but recorded only three tracks with them) will like this. Good music, nice arrangements, good sidemen incl. Pete Johnson, Maxwell Davies (on a Pres kick) and the Gerald Wilson Orchestra on four tracks. 

Edited May 5, 2017 by mikeweil