JSngry

Hey Kids, Have You Heard The News? MOSAIC's IN TROUBLE!!!

1,231 posts in this topic

As for Mosaic, they have had an incredible run.  I'm sure when they started in the early 80's, they didn't dare expect a 35 year run and hundreds of releases.   They were magic for awhile (Tina Brooks, Larry Young, etc.).  Time marches on.  We've been able to see so much more reissued on CD (by Mosaic and other labels) than I ever would have dreamed.  I'm grateful.  Even though I would never choose to listen to it, I'm thankful to Norah Jones' Come Away With Me album, which filled  Blue Note's coffers with cash, and maybe made possible some continued reissue campaigns (Conn, Rare Grooves, RVG) of their catalog.

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The Kirk DVD on that set is just amazing!

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Exceptionally good, stereo.

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2 hours ago, erwbol said:

Very disappointing a non-moderator can have so much authority over other people's posts with the current board software.

This is not for J.A.W. to decide.

agreed. this is kinda crazy.

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I had a dream last night where I went to Allen Lowe's house for some timed jazz-crossword party and couldn't get any of the answers right. It was stressful.

how's that for thread drift?

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Just to make it clear, the only "power" over a thread that a non-moderator has is to delete their opening post. Any poster has the ability to delete their own post, of course, but when an opening post is deleted, it takes the whole thread with it. Seeing as how that's where the topic title and whatever database markers reside, I don't see how it could be otherwise.

I agree it seems like a pissy thing to do, to open a thread and then delete it after it's gotten all conversational and shit, but afaik, the only other options are for the OP to delete the contents of the post but leave the thread open. A request to lock the thread can be placed, of course, but a perception of petulance about the direction a conversation has taken, all of it within board guidelines, is not enough to lock a thread, imo.

This database shit, I understand very little of it, but I do know that this "power" to delete a thread resides in the hands of the user, not the software. Unless you want to have a system where nobody except a moderator can delete anything once posted, then this is how it's going to be.

 

 

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56 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Just to make it clear, the only "power" over a thread that a non-moderator has is to delete their opening post. Any poster has the ability to delete their own post, of course, but when an opening post is deleted, it takes the whole thread with it. Seeing as how that's where the topic title and whatever database markers reside, I don't see how it could be otherwise.

 

Which means that the problem is with the way THIS forum is set up software-wise. I know of more than one forum (forums I visit regularly, as you may have guessed ;)) where a thread starter can indeed delete his own posts too, including an opening post, but even removing an opening post does not remove the thread as such at all. In fact, other forums being prone to disputes and/or just personal animosities too, this has led to more than one thread where subsequent posters have complained bitterly about thread starters who, being pissed off for whatever reason, had removed their initial post (and their subsequent interventions), which meant that the thread was now  left hanging in the air (with replies being there but no question that the replies referred to, etc.)  and therefore difficult to follow and understand for those who came along later. Not good but way better than any ill-conceived setup where anybody who deletes his own posts will at the same deleted the entire thread.

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1 hour ago, clifford_thornton said:

I had a dream last night where I went to Allen Lowe's house for some timed jazz-crossword party and couldn't get any of the answers right. It was stressful.

how's that for thread drift?

I had the same dream.   15-down was juliuswatkins.  Drift on.

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Meanwhile, on the Mosaic site the Savoy set is now on backorder and the Coltrane Sun Ship is back in stock.

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I've privately discussed what I did with a few people and tried to explain that in my view the direction the deleted thread was taking had nothing to do anymore with the original topic, the state Mosaic is in; it had been taken over almost entirely by discussions about streaming etc., which, like Paul Secor said upthread, is of no relevance since it had been established that there won't/can't be downloading etc. at Mosaic. I talked with one of the moderators about it, but got a negative response, which pissed me off in such a way that I overreacted and deleted my first post and with it the whole thread. I acted too quickly and apologize for that, especially since responses concerning the actual topic went down with it. It's clear that my idea as to how a board should be moderated is very different from how the mods see it and that's fine, but it's also clear that this isn't my place (anymore) and I should never have returned. I only got back here because I wanted to give Mosaic some kind of boost and I hope it did, if only for a while.

As I told one of the mods it's OK with me if the deleted thread can be recouped and reinstated, but I have no idea if that can be done. I'm out of here now.

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We lost the ability to retrieve & reactivate deleted thread a few years ago. When I say "we", I mean moderators - but I contacted Jim A about the same thing once, and he couldn't find a way to do it either.

 

1 hour ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Not good but way better than any ill-conceived setup where anybody who deletes his own posts will at the same deleted the entire thread.

No, not "anybody who deletes his own posts". Only people who delete their own thread-starting post.

Anybody/everybody else, delete all of your posts you want, nothing will happen except that they'll be gone.

No "alternative facts", please! You cannot make a post on your microwave, nor can you delete a thread by deleting your Post # 1539 in it.

If there's a setting in this software that allows for deletion of opening post/retention of thread (or a newer version of the software that allows for it), I'm unaware of it. I'm a moderator, yes, but not an administrator.

I'm sure the board owner would be delighted to hear your suggestions in full detail, especially in the form of a complaint!

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1 hour ago, J.A.W. said:

 it had been established that there won't/can't be downloading etc. at Mosaic.

Again, that isn't what was established at all. What was established is that their current licensing rights doesn't allow them to. That doesn't mean those rights cannot be renegotiated. 

So, it's not "off topic" to discuss what makes the current music distribution market tick, and look at ways in how that is likely affecting Mosaic, and what potential course corrections they could make to ensure their viability moving forward. Veering "off topic" would be Jim posting about this weird looking frog that his dog just ate, and asking for opinions as to whether or not he should take him to the vet, or just observe him for possible symptoms of poisoning. And the rest of us chiming in with our completely inexperienced, yet adamant, "suggestions". 

I'm sensing you've got some things going on in "real" life that have you slightly off balance at the moment, because this is really out of character for you. If so, I'm sincerely sorry to hear that. If not, lighten up, Francis! ;) 

Once a valued member, always a valued member. We've been riding this here rodeo for a decade and a half, damn near. And I apologize if I was the main reason behind you deleting the old thread, and/or leaving. But, if you're going to leave, then fare thee well. I can only speak of myself and say, I hope that you change your mind and stick around. 

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It seems to me that J.A.W. wanted to disassociate himself from the thread and perhaps didn't realize that by deleting his thread starting post that the entire thread would be deleted. In the past, moderators (or a moderator?) have deleted long running threads by accident. These things happen and we have to move on and not point fingers, just as we did when the listening and film threads were deleted.

Edited by paul secor

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1 hour ago, J.A.W. said:

I've privately discussed what I did with a few people and tried to explain that in my view the direction the deleted thread was taking had nothing to do anymore with the original topic, the state Mosaic is in; it had been taken over almost entirely by discussions about streaming etc., which, like Paul Secor said upthread, is of no relevance since it had been established that there won't/can't be downloading etc. at Mosaic. I talked with one of the moderators about it, but got a negative response, which pissed me off in such a way that I overreacted and deleted my first post and with it the whole thread. I acted too quickly and apologize for that, especially since responses concerning the actual topic went down with it. It's clear that my idea as to how a board should be moderated is very different from how the mods see it and that's fine, but it's also clear that this isn't my place (anymore) and I should never have returned. I only got back here because I wanted to give Mosaic some kind of boost and I hope it did, if only for a while.

As I told one of the mods it's OK with me if the deleted thread can be recouped and reinstated, but I have no idea if that can be done. I'm out of here now.

 

well, that direction was relevant: sorry: we are not the Mosaic support club. We have every right in the world to discuss what went wrong with Mosaic. To your credit, you couldn't know how permanent deletions are nowadays (clearly a shortcoming of the software we're paying for).

I actually found Allen's last post very relevant - Mosaic never had much respect for the original physical product. Original album covers? Listening to albums without switching CDs in the middle of side 1 of the original album? Yes, the liner notes were great, but the Francis Wolff photographs I've mostly seen elsewhere already. Not much of an issue to those who grew up on 78s (no liner notes, no covers, no trouble), but it does take some getting used to for the album generations (*45 - *90, the end's in sight)

I'd argue that even the importance of good (but not great) liner notes has gone down a lot in recent years as you can google biographies and line-ups...

I'm still buying records but I wouldn't want to live without spotify. For the monthly price of less than an album, I have access to, e.g., the entire Steeplechase catalogue. When I'm travelling and feel like listening to something new, that's no issue. (And I hate carrying my CDs or organizing music files.) spotify and competitors provide access to a collection of music that easily beats any record store or private collection in the world. It's not permanent, stuff is coming and going (mostly stuff that nobody ever earned money with btw) but at any point in time there's more at your disposal than you ever wanted.

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2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Just to make it clear, the only "power" over a thread that a non-moderator has is to delete their opening post. Any poster has the ability to delete their own post, of course, but when an opening post is deleted, it takes the whole thread with it. Seeing as how that's where the topic title and whatever database markers reside, I don't see how it could be otherwise.

I agree it seems like a pissy thing to do, to open a thread and then delete it after it's gotten all conversational and shit, but afaik, the only other options are for the OP to delete the contents of the post but leave the thread open. A request to lock the thread can be placed, of course, but a perception of petulance about the direction a conversation has taken, all of it within board guidelines, is not enough to lock a thread, imo.

This database shit, I understand very little of it, but I do know that this "power" to delete a thread resides in the hands of the user, not the software. Unless you want to have a system where nobody except a moderator can delete anything once posted, then this is how it's going to be.

 

 

In summary, the first thread went south because it got sidetracked into a discussion about downloads...and now this thread is going south because it's getting sidetracked into a discussion about the right to delete a thread.  Can we please stay on topic about Mosaic's woes?

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1 hour ago, mjzee said:

 Can we please stay on topic about Mosaic's woes?

Sure.

Do we simply turn this into a RIP: Mosaic thread? At least it was started by the right man for the job, wasn't it? What's the need in trying to take an intellectual look into why this happened, and what possibilities lie ahead if they want to remain on life support? 

Hell, as somewhat short-sighted as it seemed on the surface, I think Lon was onto something with his suggestion earlier about them focusing on smaller LP box sets. 

But hey, let's unplug life support and honor the DNR. Better to mourn the dead than discuss any life-saving measures. 

 

Edited by Scott Dolan

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3 hours ago, jazztrain said:

Allen,

I suspect the name you're trying to remember is David Chertok.  I went to a few of his presentations years ago.

Ken Crawford used to show a lot of films at the annual record bash in New Jersey.

It used to be really, really hard to see those films.  Now you can just go to YouTube and see most of them.  They're still special but much more accessible.

I share your experience of seeking out good sounding reissues.  It did take a lot of time and effort. 

I once visited Chertok at his apartment on (IIRC) Riverside Drive to discuss putting out some of his films on Lazer Disc  (speaking of media becoming obsolete.   I believe that most of his collection is now held by Mark Cantor who is still cataloguing it so he may find some pleasant surprises. 

4 hours ago, jazzbo said:

 

To date I have all the items that are currently available for sale and have the next set on pre-order. gifts, 

 

Lon, what's the next set?  Teddy Wilson?   I couldn't find anything under "Upcoming releases" on their website. 

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1 hour ago, mjzee said:

In summary, the first thread went south because it got sidetracked into a discussion about downloads...and now this thread is going south because it's getting sidetracked into a discussion about the right to delete a thread.  Can we please stay on topic about Mosaic's woes?

If you think downloads are the future or downfall of anything, yes, you can talk about Mosaic's woes, but no, you're not going to be terribly helpful (me neither)

Edited by Niko

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2 hours ago, JSngry said:

I'm sure the board owner would be delighted to hear your suggestions in full detail, especially in the form of a complaint!

It all depends on the settings the forums software allows. IIRC it has always been like this here, that the whole thread is deleted together with an opening post, which makes sense for sales threads and the like, to save storage space on the server.

The forum software I had allowed moderators to delete threads, members could edit their posts to blank space or "------" if they wanted to - and you could adjust the time span in which a post could be edited after posting, from one hour to infinity. Take a look into the froum software manual.

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1 hour ago, medjuck said:

 

Lon, what's the next set?  Teddy Wilson?   I couldn't find anything under "Upcoming releases" on their website. 

Yes, I was wrong, thought that was already pre-ordered, I will as soon as I see the opportunity, I've pre-ordered every set for the last eight years or so.

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4 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

I had a dream last night where I went to Allen Lowe's house for some timed jazz-crossword party and couldn't get any of the answers right. It was stressful.

how's that for thread drift?

 

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I made a suggestion earlier about moving forward (even if you're looking backwards musically)
by establishing a new setup that's more public - something like the situation that more and more
labels are using with Bandcamp for instance. Yeah, little return on downloads - even with a
minimum purchase amount, but I've seen some labels really present great looking LP/CD packages
with that same purchase minimum that seems to garner lots of interest. When Strut Records only
makes 500 copies each of the various formats of the Sun Ra Singles collection and all of them sell out
in just a few weeks (except for the 3-Disc CD, interestingly so, but with only 5 copies left), then there's
something to say about dropping your limit from 3000 copies down to something more financially
manageable like 500 or 750 or even a thousand. Free or improv jazz labels new and old have moved there
and I see classic jazz labels there too. I think Mosaic can just look at their run as a good one that served a
purpose for its time and they can just retire or if they want to continue, then they need to break out of
their shell and start looking around and talking to some folks about rebranding for the 21st Century.
 

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The new Teddy Wilson Columbia set isn't available for pre-order, at least not anywhere I've seen, so I worry whether we'll see it. I'll really miss 'em if they go, *especially* if they don't get those 60s Johnny Hodges Verves out first!!

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