Trane and, um, Mel?

[Mark Stryker]

When the John Coltrane Quintet (with Dolphy) toured Europe in the fall of 1961 the band was part of a package with Dizzy Gillespie's band that included Mel Lewis. There is a bootleg recording of Mel playing with Dolphy, McCoy and bassist Bob Cunningham at a jam session that got recorded in Munich. The personnel for this has been reported differently, but I think this is accurate. On another front, an online McCoy Tyner discography lists the following, although the Tom Lord Discography does not list this date. Anybody know any details -- did it happen, circumstances, are there tapes, etc? 

John Coltrane Quintet

John Coltrane (soprano, tenor sax) Eric Dolphy (alto sax, bass clarinet, flute) McCoy Tyner (piano) Reggie Workman (bass) Mel Lewis (drums)

"Falkonercentret", Copenhagen, Denmark, November 26, 1961

	So What	rejected
	My Favorite Things	-
	3 unknown titles

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Mark Stryker

[BillF]

A friend told me he saw this show in the UK at Newcastle upon Tyne. He said that during Dizzy's performance Trane sat on the front row of the audience and laughed his head off at Dizzy's clowning.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

lol

[Gheorghe]

Sounds interesting. I always pay very very much attention to the drummer´s work. There is nothing better for the inspiration of the other musicians than a good drummer.

Mel sure was a topnotch drummer, what I heard sounded good. But I must admit I heard him mostly with the big band with Thad Jones but the few things I heard him do on small group recordings are also fine.

 

[Steve Gray]

I have a copy of that Dolphy jam on CD somewhere, I will have to try to find it.

IIRC it is recorded abysmally

I saw that Coltrane/Gillespie  tour in Walthamstow, London.

[Big Beat Steve]

FWIW, here is a quote from the review of the late-November 1961 Gillespie/Coltrane "double feature" concert in Stockholm during the above tour as written by Lars Werner for the December, 1961 issue of ORKESTER JOURNALEN:

"Gillespie's music certainly is mature and complete, which is about the least you can say about what John Coltrane's group plays. Here it is all about jazz in an overwhelming expansion and searching without limits. The program was largely the same for both concerts but the musical contents were quite different. A singular experience and really stimulating to hear.
The biggest impression was made by the rhythmic freedom and richness - Elvin Jones' enormlously driving and pushing drum work. I think this he the best drummer i have ever heard.
MyCoy Tyner made a much better impression than on record and played long, beautiful melody lines and romantic sounds - the sounds that Coltrane is said to be so fascinated by, and one can understand  that behind his experiments dissolving all chords he insists on having a rich harmonic background. Coltrane was in fine form on all tunes, and I liked him best soprano sax in his two versions of "My Favorite Things" of which he played one at each concert. This was his top feature anyway - totally hypnotizing with his repeated figures and Jones' phantastic drumming.
On the other hand, I found Dolphy's participation to be quite superfluous. He just gives me a feeling of bluffing and masquerading whenever I find myself near him. I think it is just wrong to play "wrong" the way he does.
All in all a top-notch concert of the kind you would like all concerts to be. "

So clearly Lars Werner had not got to grips with Dolphy by late 1961 - and Werner was no slouch on the Swedish and European jazz scene and not averse to exploring advanced jazz ideas.

So IMHO there is no point denigrating Werner (with the doubtful benefit of hindsight and therefore missing the point) for how he felt about Dolphy at THAT time. It just reflects the impact a musician may have had (or not) in his time.

 

[clifford_thornton]

Cool -- I assume this is Lars/Lasse Werner the pianist?

[Big Beat Steve]

Yes, him. Exactly.

He wrote regularly for OJ in those years.

BTW, just to put Werner's comments about Dolphy a bit into context, ESTRAD - the "other" Swedish jazz mag of those years - had this to say about Dolphy in the review of that concert: "Next to him [Coltrane]  stands Eric Dolphy and he makes even the bandleader himself sound conventional . Well, almost, at any rate. ..." 

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

Did i miss something, did somebody here denigrate Werner?

I do have the Dolphy/Lewis records, though (two LPs, one LP with just one cut, the other the whole album). It's ok, but clearly Dolphy was in another place than was the band, like those very first Ayler records. Fascinating history.

 

[Big Beat Steve]

9 hours ago, JSngry said:

Did i miss something, did somebody here denigrate Werner?

 

Let's put it this way ... it's happened before that when reviewers' (or - generally speakling - scribes') comments were brought up that might sound like heresy about someone held up high on a pedestal among today's fans it wouldn't take long for replies of the sort of "he didn't know shit" to come up. So I thought it only fair to point out BEFOREHAND that things have to be seen in the context of THEIR times.

As for your other comment about "Dolphy being in another place than was the band", by coincidence while checking the above reviews I also came across a reference in the press review section of one of the issues relating to a feature on Coltrane and Dolphy that seems to have been run in an April, 1962 issue of Down Beat. The contents were paraphrased like this: "Coltrane partially confirmed what the critics had to say about the two of them apparently never being able to finish a tune. .... The cooperation with Dolphy still remains on a theoretical level, as they haven't really found each other yet on stage. One never knows when the other will stop, what he'll be going to play and how, but John was optimistic about the future."  Sounds a bit like your impressions, doesn't it?

Edited September 27, 2017 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

not really, but...ok?

[Big Beat Steve]

"But" ...?

[JSngry]

I don't get what's being said as far as proactively defending a critic who has not been disparaged, and they dynamic of Dolphy jamming with Dizzy's working band is nothing like the dynamic of Dolphy being a collaborative member of Trane's working band, but ok, sure. I don't think I know what the point is, but having been accused of being incomprehensible myself on more than one occasion, I'll let it ride.

[Big Beat Steve]

Maybe we misunderstood each other.

I had understood your reference to Dolphy as referring to his CONCERT appearances with Coltrane ("the band") - and therefore I'd have seen a parallel there. This may have been the source of the misunderstanding.

Actually the "proactive" thing actually is beside the point by now. I had made this point (and stand by it) only because - as you no doubt know - what I said about todays' worshippers of past hereos falling all over themselves in defending their idol against critics who voiced their criticism THEN and therefore operated from a totally different (but IMO no less valid) "period" point of reference is something that did and does happen. And I find these hindsight-based approaches inappropriate in many cases. So - as far as I am concerned - "don't even try."

 

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2017 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

Nah, I was referring to Dolphy jamming with Dizzy band.

[Big Beat Steve]

Yes, by now I know.

[Mark Stryker]

Returning to the main thrust of my original question: Is there any recorded evidence that Mel in fact sat in with the Coltrane band as this one discography entry suggests? Certainly not implausible that Elvin was AWOL one day.

[BillF]

A very full account of this tour is given in Chris Smith's The View from the Back of the Band: The Life and Music of Mel Lewis, pp. 87-90. There is no mention of Mel sitting in with the Coltrane band.

[JSngry]

Anybody contact David Wild?