Some seemingly far-out Bird

[Larry Kart]

A  simple or maybe simple-minded question. Does anyone have Granz's JATP 1949  Carnegie Hall concert, with Bird, Sonny Criss, Navarro, Flip Phillips, et al. (Pablo). Listening last night to Parker’s solos on the three longish jam tracks — “Leap Here” (“Perdido “ changes), “Indiana” (with the  “Ice Freezes Red” line), and "Lover Come Back To Me” — I find that I can’t quite grasp what (so to speak) harmonic plane it is that Bird adopts and essentially remains upon throughout, especially on “Leap Here” and “Indiana.” Sounds to me like he’s more or less abstractly (if you will) floating above the changes at quite an oblique remove, as though he were looking down  at them from an unusual harmonic plane of his own invention — the position of this harmonic plane somewhat reminiscent, though earthier in flavor, of that of George Russell’s “Ezzthetic” and some of Russell's later RCA Jazz Workshop pieces. There are some later Parker performances where he does something similar, I think — e.g. IIRC a “Groovin’ High” from Uptown's “Bird — Boston 1952” album with Mingus and Dick Twardzik, where it sounds at times like he’s looking at the changes upside down or in a mirror. In any case, if you have that JATP album, give Bird’s solos on those tracks a listen and tell me that I have no idea what I’m talking about.

[CJ Shearn]

I'll give a listen

[JSngry]

This?

I don't hear the harmony being particularly stretched, but the internal rhythms, the stop/stars of each line, that's pretty much Bird at his most free.He'd create these internal micro cadences and that started and stopped wherever they wanted to, and then they'd dd up to a macro line. The Massey Hall shit is like that too, I transcribed Bird on "Perdido" and got the notes right, but the rhythms, the internal time, whoaaaaa,,,,,

[Larry Kart]

5 hours ago, JSngry said:

This?

I don't hear the harmony being particularly stretched, but the internal rhythms, the stop/stars of each line, that's pretty much Bird at his most free.He'd create these internal micro cadences and that started and stopped wherever they wanted to, and then they'd dd up to a macro line. The Massey Hall shit is like that too, I transcribed Bird on "Perdido" and got the notes right, but the rhythms, the internal time, whoaaaaa,,,,,

No, that's from a different JATP at Carnegie Hall in 1949 performance. This is the one I mean:

https://www.discogs.com/Various-Norman-Granz-JATP-Carnegie-Hall-1949/release/603191

As you can see, the version of "Lover Come Back To Me" in the clip and the one from the album are not the same, the one from the album being more than twice as long. Apparently there were at least two JATP at Carnegie Hall engagements in 1949.

[Larry Kart]

Oops -- it is the same performance cut in half. But , as I said in the post up top, it's the other two jam tracks from that concert where Bird seems to me to be really out there harmonically.

[mjzee]

Fun fact: the correct date for this concert is February 11, 1949.  There was a discussion about this many years ago on either this board or BNBB: Fantasy mistook 2/11/49 [probably noted as 11 (day) / 2 (month) / 1949] for 11/2/49.

Edited January 18, 2018 by mjzee

[Gheorghe]

I have that record .

The "far out" or more abstractly sounding Bird..... could it be Sonny Criss ?
 

I had the same problem once I think it was an Inglewood Jam, where they are both. Sonny Criss had a sound very similar to Bird. I think he got his sound from the hard sound Bird had on his 1946 JATP recordings.

But the difference is that  Criss seems to exagerate a bit . On those early recordings 1949-52 he always sounds a little nervous, he doesn´t leave space and doesn´t have those little melodies in it that Bird would have had.

 

[JSngry]

I'll need to hear the record in question, but generally speaking, the real out/free Bird comes from his rhythmic whimsy. I've never heard anything harmonically that I couldn't reverse-engineer logically, but the rhythms, especially the internal rhythms, that's where the, to me inexplicable genius shows up.

[JSngry]

Speaking of the record in question...I'm confused about performances cut in half and all that...what is the exact CD I'll want to buy to get the gig in fullest form?

[kh1958]

This is it, I believe: https://www.amazon.com/Norman-Granz-JATP-Carnegie-Hall/dp/B00005Y1SW/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1516285021&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=Norman+Grantz+Carnegie+Hall+1949

[Larry Kart]

2 hours ago, kh1958 said:

This is it, I believe: https://www.amazon.com/Norman-Granz-JATP-Carnegie-Hall/dp/B00005Y1SW/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1516285021&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=Norman+Grantz+Carnegie+Hall+1949

Yes, that's it, but I can't find links anywhere to those two long jam tracks ("Perdido" and "Indiana" contrafacts)  where Bird, so it seems to me, is so strikingly "far out."

[JSngry]

It's on the way, thanks!

[Larry Kart]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

It's on the way, thanks!

Whether you hear what I hear there, it's some very good music.

[JSngry]

no doubt!

[jeffcrom]

I've loved this concert since the day it was issued, not just for the superior Bird, but for the Coleman Hawkins set with Fats Navarro as the other horn. I listened again last night, and I don't really hear Bird doing anything harmonically that he didn't do elsewhere - I hear his usual alterations of the chords, particularly the dominants. But I would agree that the rate of such alterations is pretty zippy - they come quickly and frequently, which may account for the impression you got. 

In any case, it's excellent music. And I'm amused at the way any small hint at a honk from Flip Phillips sends the crowd into a minor frenzy.

[Larry Kart]

3 hours ago, jeffcrom said:

I've loved this concert since the day it was issued, not just for the superior Bird, but for the Coleman Hawkins set with Fats Navarro as the other horn. I listened again last night, and I don't really hear Bird doing anything harmonically that he didn't do elsewhere - I hear his usual alterations of the chords, particularly the dominants. But I would agree that the rate of such alterations is pretty zippy - they come quickly and frequently, which may account for the impression you got. 

In any case, it's excellent music. And I'm amused at the way any small hint at a honk from Flip Phillips sends the crowd into a minor frenzy.

My impression isn't that they're sent into a minor frenzy at the hint of a honk from Flip but that they anticipate they'll momentarily have a chance/excuse to get full-scale frenzied in the prescribed JATP audience manner, but in this case the chance/excuse doesn't come.

[Gheorghe]

18 hours ago, JSngry said:

Speaking of the record in question...I'm confused about performances cut in half and all that...what is the exact CD I'll want to buy to get the gig in fullest form?

One special highlight on it is the ballad feature of Fats "Things we did last summer". Fantastic ! And a rare recorded document of Fats playing a ballad.

[Quasimado]

Yes, just beautiful Fats. Interesting to see in retrospect how often Hawk employed boppers in the 40's ... Q.

[Gheorghe]

I´ve listened again to that really great album, the best of the Jazz at the Philharmonics, and I can´t find something really "far-out" in Bird´s playing. IMHO everything I´ve heard him play, has that unique balance and melody in it. On Indiana (Ice Freezes Red) he makes some outbursts into the highest range of his instrument, but even this is not new. He did it much earlier, as on the 1947 Broadcasts "Bands for Bonds" on "Donna Lee" ( based on Indiana as everybody might know) where he reaches a very high note, announced by Barry Ulanov in a very strange manner as "some very strange recording noises by Bird".

I´ve heard things that Bird was difficult for those who had been used to oldtime jazz, but maybe I´m too young, I grew up with Bird´s sound in my ears, that´s the musical language I understand best, so Bird and Diz always have sounded to me so familiar I never traced something "far out".

But the second alto player Sonny Criss, he sounds strange, he cannot really phrase a thing like Bird, he´s got fantastic chops but doesn´t have the imagination to really "sing" on the horn like Bird. Many bop followers were faced with that problem: They thought they must sound more abstract and then it might be the "bop thing"........

The other players are cool. Flip Philips is an older guy but play he does, he really had chops. That trombone player has great chops but sounds more like Dixieland to me. Hank Jones is fantastic. I think Hank Jones always was the real Gentleman of the piano.

[JSngry]

Got the record, listened to it a few times the other day. First impressions, not really too "out" from Bird harmonically, but the phrasing, the internal rhythms, are pretty crazy. And sometimes, Bird sounds a little wired/jumpy. But only sometimes. And also never really loose/free like he could get.

About the rest of the record, good to be reminded that Shelley Manne could always go there, ya' know. Not that it matters, but him and Stan Levey got there earlier than many and better than even more. One more feather in an already pluminous hat, god bless Shelley Manne, the man who not only could, but did.

Tommy Turk, whatever happened to Tommy Turk? He sounds here like a very diligent young man.

Criss...my god, I've heard intimations that Criss got fucked up trying to "follow" Bird, and here, it's literal. He still had his sweet sound (maybe the first time I've heard a link to Willie Smith that way?), and his distinctive rhythmic thing that got carried on through lord knows how many LA Altoists, but jeeeeesus...you're not following Bird, not here, not anywhere, not like that, and that would be enough to fuck anybody up trying, especially a young man emerging from a "local" scene...poor guy.

And yeah, you want to talk about some, if not "out" then certainly "advanced" harmonies, listen to Hank Jones' comp here. I still wonder if that's where Thad got the ideas about harmony.

HAWK!

And is it just me, or do the announcements sound like the garblings of a bad radio almost tuned to an almost existent station?

[Larry Kart]

Yup -- pretty crazy. Martin Williams once wrote (but then, this was Martin) that, other things being equal and genius a given, the unacknowledged key to how Bird sounded on any  night was how high he was, on what substance and nature/quality of that substance he was high, and where in the course of his high he was.

 I've always thought Tommy Turk sounded like he was playing an un-musical saw.

Yeah, Shelly is right there. It also sounds to me like he's really enjoying it all. I'll go back and listen again to Hank.

[Gheorghe]

Yes the announcements are not well recorded, but anyway it´s nothing more than just shouting out the names of the musicians. No "hip talk" or something...

Tommy Turk, I´m sure he might also be on other JATP recordings, but the worst thing was when Granz added him to Bird´s quintet on some 1949 studio recordings, I think those with those strange titles "Cardboard" "Passport" "Visa" etc. , this might have been almost around the same period like the JATP.

About Sonny Criss it seems we have similar impressions. Never thought about the Willie Smith Sound but you might be right. If I consider it, there are shades of Smith in his playing. I´ve heard once, that Sonny Criss had heard Bird at JATP 1946, which anyway was in LA,  and got his influences from Bird´s sound on those concerts. I never cared for Sonny Criss, I think he is on another Bird date, I´m not sure right now but is it possible he was on some "Inglewood Jam".

HAWK and FATS, and Fats on "Things we did last summer"....