Penguin 7th ed.

[gdogus]

Well, my 7th edition arrived a few days ago, and I've been spending some time with it. I'm making a jump from the 4th edition, so lots of new stuff for me to take in - but I gather one feature new to this latest edition in the "Core Collection" section in many entries. The idea seems to be that certain albums by some artists belong in a core collection of jazz, and that this core collection is distinct from a list of albums that might receive the Penguin crown. Hmmm...at any rate, some albums are deemed "Core Collection" material, some receive the coveted crown, and a small handful of albums have both distinctions conferred upon them.

[Bluesnik]

I have vols. 1, 5 and 6. So I don't think I'm getting the new one.

I might, anyway, if it turns out to be a major upgrade with a host of new features instead of just the usual maintenance upgrade.

So, for those who are already holding it in their hands: what is there new in this seventh edition? Is it just the addition of new titles or is there some kind of concept shift?

Edited October 15, 2004 by Bluesnik

[relyles]

Is it just my copy, or is the index omitted in the 7th Edition? If so, that is a big negative for me. I relied heavily upon the index to locate sideman appearances by artists.

[J.A.W.]

Is it just my copy, or is the index omitted in the 7th Edition?  If so, that is a big negative for me.  I relied heavily upon the index to locate sideman appearances by artists.

Yep, no index. I'm guessing it would have gotten too fat if they had included it, but I think it's a major omission and a wrong decision.

Edited October 15, 2004 by J.A.W.

[J.A.W.]

I have vols. 1, 5 and 6. So I don't think I'm getting the new one.

I might, anyway, if it turns out to be a major upgrade with a host of new features instead of just the usual maintenance upgrade.

So, for those who are already holding it in their hands: what is there new in this seventh edition? Is it just the addition of new titles or is there some kind of concept shift?

Well, there's the addition of "Core Collections" as described in earlier posts.

[kenny weir]

No index? That's awful. I use it a lot for artists who don't have an entry under their own name. I think I'd rather see marginal artists excluded and the index retained.

[montg]

The absence of an index was alluded too in Cook's Jazz Review magazine. I got the impression that he (presumably Morton too) was forced to omit the index and that they might be looking for a new publisher next time around so that it can be restored.

[kenny weir]

The absence of an index was alluded too in Cook's Jazz Review magazine. I got the impression that he (presumably Morton too) was forced to omit the index and that they might be looking for a new publisher next time around so that it can be restored.

I doubt Penguin would let them depart AND take the book with them.

Not that I know anything about the publishing world, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if the jazz guide, in terms of ownership, is just like the OED - i.e., owned by the publishers.

In that case, Cook & Morton could thus reappear as authors of a different tome completely.

Could this be the last Penguin?

I find it staggering they would publish without an index.

[ASNL77]

I received the 7th edition and I am disappointed to see that quite a lot of reviews I was expecting to find in it have not been included.A few RVGs which were released a year ago are not even mentioned and the absence of an index is unforgivable! It is still the best guide with the best reviews but too many albums are omitted (and not only the ones which are out of print).I will stop buying it every other year. The AMG is more thorough but Scott Yanow's reviews are far too short and not very analytical.

Edited November 1, 2004 by ASNL77

[Guest Chaney]

Is it out of the question for these guys to release The Penguin on a CDROM?

[ASNL77]

Is it out of the question for these guys to release The Penguin on a CDROM?

That would be brilliant! They could include much more stuff and my bookshelves would be so relieved!

[Leeway]

Is it out of the question for these guys to release The Penguin on a CDROM?

That would be brilliant! They could include much more stuff and my bookshelves would be so relieved!

That's what has been done with such items as the Encyclopedia Britannica, and the Grove Guide, which is also bulky and needs to be updated frequently. The Penguin Guide could be sold as a CD-Rom; might even be cheaper that way. Perhaps could be enhanced with photos, some musical tracks, etc. At the least, as far as the index goes, Penguin could have put it on the Web for those so inclined to check it.

[Jeffro]

How do folks feel about the Penguin Guide as compared with the All Music Guide? I carry the 1996 AMG with me all the time and usually leave the 1996 (3rd ed.)Penguin behind. Personally, I find Penguin to be stingy in their "star" ratings and missing too many titles. And with AMG being online for no fee at http://www.allmusic.com/, I haven't bothered to buy any newer editions. Are the newer ones (post-1996) that more complete than the old ones?

[Quincy]

How do folks feel about the Penguin Guide as compared with the All Music Guide?  I carry the 1996 AMG with me all the time and usually leave the 1996 (3rd ed.)Penguin behind.  Personally, I find Penguin to be stingy in their "star" ratings and missing too many titles.  And with AMG being online for no fee at http://www.allmusic.com/, I haven't bothered to buy any newer editions.  Are the newer ones (post-1996) that more complete than the old ones?

Although the Penguin gives out 5 star crowns, they are so few & far between that I think you need to consider their top grade as 4 stars. And if you want to get all quantitative about it I'm not so sure it as simple as adding 1 to the Penguin ratings to make them equal the AMG ratings.

For whatever reason, I guess I'm more likely to be confident a 3 1/2 and above album in Penguin will be highly enjoyable as opposed to a 4 star and above on AMG. Maybe because Penguin is just 2 guys doing the reviewing.

Also, and I'm afraid I can't think of an example, but I get the impression that there are more cases of AMG 2 star records seeming to be better than their rating as opposed to lower rated Penguin albums. (I want to note that often with 2 out 5 ratings or equivalents it is noted that such album may be enjoyable for fans but someone new to the artist should probably pick something else to begin with. So I don't expect all of a beloved artist's output to be 3 stars and above, as soon ratings become worthless.)

I have the latest (7th) Penguin along with the 5th. There are still some odd omissions, such as the Blakey's Indestructible isn't in there, yet some other RVGs released after it (Sweet Honey Bee) are included for review. Zorn's output ends at '98, though in a way I can't blame them as no one can keep up. Many of the Jazz In Paris releases included, but not all. And Penguin still doesn't do Mosaics and drops stuff that goes OOP.

I've spotted 5th editions used for $3 to $5 locally, so if you have some used bookstores around that might be a cheap option (wouldn't work by mail when weight is factored in.) And if all you care about are the stars rather than the essay part (I like the writing myself), you can Google Penguin ratings for the higher rated ones. Here's one for the 5th vs. the 6th edition.

[couw]

and welcome to the forum Jeffro

[brownie]

I have never bothered to get any of the Penguin Jazz on CD books yet!

I was thinking of getting the 7th edition and was about to order.

But there was a copy at a bookstore I went to this morning and had a quick glance.

Looks all right but I did a quick search of some favorites and found nothing on Charles Tyler, Joel Futterman or Bob Dorough. Is this really the best reference book on the subject?

Not really sure I am going to order it...

[Nate Dorward]

It's not the most thorough book (it only covers discs in-print, & it's a bit choosy about even that), but what it does cover it covers well.

Futterman's only in the 1st edition (a very unenthusiastic verdict about 3 discs, if I remember rightly). Tyler's in most editions--the 6th for instance has one disc of his on Silkheart & recommends an o/p 1981 Storyville session. Their coverage of singers is very idiosyncratic & maybe Dorough falls outside their limits.

[Steve Reynolds]

and they list people like Urs Leimgruber, Joelle Leandre, Peter Kowald and even AMM - plus where is one gonna get full detailed commentary on great musicians like Paul Dunmall, Joe McPhee *and* Duke Ellington?

[AllenLowe]

The best of all these is still the Max Harrison et al , 2 volume Essential Jazz Records, IMHO. I would stay away from anything that has Scott Yanow reviewing for it, hope I don't offend anyone, but he is the shallowest critic I've seen, knows enough to be damagingly inaccurate but not enough to teach you anything. Penguin isn't bad, but I have to admit I only bought the earlier editions because I was in them (though I'm not in the present) - check out the Max Harrison stuff if you can find it.

Edited November 27, 2004 by AllenLowe

[minew]

As usual, Crazy Jazz lists the new crowns:

http://www.crazyjazz.co.uk/penguin/penguincrowns.htm

And now also lists the "Core"

http://www.crazyjazz.co.uk/penguin/penguincore.htm

More fodder for debate and discussion, I'm sure.

Edited December 1, 2004 by minew

[Simon Weil]

The best of all these is still the Max Harrison et al , 2 volume Essential Jazz Records, IMHO. I would stay away from anything that has Scott Yanow reviewing for it, hope I don't offend anyone, but he is the shallowest critic I've seen, knows enough to be damagingly inaccurate but not enough to teach you anything. Penguin isn't bad, but I have to admit I only bought the earlier editions because I was in them (though I'm not in the present) - check out the Max Harrison stuff if you can find it.

The problem I have with Vol 2 is Stuart Nicholson, who I don't think is original. In that respect Vol 1 is better, Charles Fox actually having new things to say off his own bat. I do agree that these are much better than Penguin and I also agree that Harrison is a top class critic.

My take on Penguin is that I think it is basically received wisdom.

Simon Weil

[DrJ]

What you say is true to a degree Simon. I have noticed as I have more and more of the titles they talk about that the Penguin Guide guys often extract comments (paraphrased) more or less straight out of the liner notes from various CDs (without crediting them as such).

Edited December 1, 2004 by DrJ

[DMP]

I've always found the Penguin Guides to be a lot of fun. Great bathroom reading - you can open it anywhere and find something worth reading. Always enjoy that put-down of Gene Lees in the Bill Evans section. Plus they give the top rating to that over-looked classic, "Shelly Manne at the Blackhawk."

[DrJ]

I enjoy the PENGUINS for what they are too, DMP, but do feel that sometimes they veer perilously close to plagiarism, and even more often they really do simply hand down received wisdom, never digging any deeper for themselves.

[Leeway]

I enjoy the PENGUINS for what they are too, DMP, but do feel that sometimes they veer perilously close to plagiarism, and even more often they really do simply hand down received wisdom, never digging any deeper for themselves.

I've not really had that impression. In fact, what I like about Morton and Cook is their often pungent opinions and sharp commentary. In general, I think they provide a good overview of an artist's body of work.

With the thousands of CDs reviewed, some of no particular interest, it wouldn't be surprising if some of the reviews are boiler plate; in fact, I'm surprised not more of the reviews are. But in most cases, I do get the impression of real critical effort going on. I'd be interested in any example of plagiarism, or near-plagiarism.