Grace Kelly

[clifford_thornton]

There is reason to play bebop now, and she can certainly do it technically. But the music is more than technique. 

Lacy was 25 in 1959 and yes, his best work was still years, decades in the future. But hearing the tentative curious steps of Lacy in 1959 is to hear someone with a unique voice, if not a total concept, and Kelly does not have either. She's "fine" in the way that the sushi and brisket wrap I had for dinner last night were "fine." I didn't get sick, felt like I probably spent too much money, and there are quite a few other places to eat that will allow me to skip this one in the future. But hey, I survived the experience and didn't go away starved, so...

[JSngry]

1 minute ago, clifford_thornton said:

 I didn't get sick, felt like I probably spent too much money, and there are quite a few other places to eat that will allow me to skip this one in the future. But hey, I survived the experience and didn't go away starved, so...

That describes soooooo many life experience on encounters in the pursuit of immediate (or sooner) gratification, some involving humans, some not, but all rooted in the inner need for a comforting predictable external outcome with a minimum expending of inner effort.

[Hot Ptah]

40 minutes ago, JSngry said:

It's true, to evolve from a tentative lack of substance to a confident lack of substance is the mark of an evolving evolution nevertheless, in context, ergo, nothing from nothing leaves nothing, but you can charge more for it, so damn the torpedoes, full speed parallel!

Have you heard her play live recently? If in the 2016-2018 time period, she has not developed from when she was 15, that would be significant. I just wonder how many of us on this board have heard her play in the past two years. I have not.

19 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

There is reason to play bebop now, and she can certainly do it technically. But the music is more than technique. 

Lacy was 25 in 1959 and yes, his best work was still years, decades in the future. But hearing the tentative curious steps of Lacy in 1959 is to hear someone with a unique voice, if not a total concept, and Kelly does not have either. She's "fine" in the way that the sushi and brisket wrap I had for dinner last night were "fine." I didn't get sick, felt like I probably spent too much money, and there are quite a few other places to eat that will allow me to skip this one in the future. But hey, I survived the experience and didn't go away starved, so...

Are her live appearances in 2017 and 2018 just "fine" and nothing more? I have not heard her live in 2017 or 2018.

[JSngry]

I've "seen" her play live fairly recently, there are YouTube videos. And although the skills have become more fluent, the content - as I hear it - remains about the same, which is to say, honestly, that I don't give a shit, not even a little bit. Those who do, enjoy, it's there for you, and unless tragedy befall this still-young life, will be for a long time to come.

Now, do you mean have I been in the same room as she was while she was playing? No, I have not, nor do I plan, under the current dynamic, on my life going in a direction where that ever happens. Fate, cruel three-legged mutton that it is, might have other outcomes in store, but we'll deal with that if and when it happens.

[Rooster_Ties]

Are there some other 25-year old male sax-players we can rail on too?  Because I'd just about bet a couple of my OOP Mosaic sets that there's a shit-ton more guys her age who play just as well (or not well) as she does -- or in contexts that just don't really cut it.

I can't say I've listened to her much, though I'm sure I've streamed a video or two over the last 8+ years since she came on the scene.

But if she's not my cup of tea (and I can't imagine she is), it's not like she's purporting to be either.  She has some sort of audience, and she's playing however she's playing (and apparently singing too), at least semi-consistent with what her following seems to like.  And probably paying some bills along the way too.

The undercurrent in this thread is that maybe she's some sort of "sell-out" (or at least a bit).  Or that she's traded on her youth (though that clock's ticking), and her gender, and perhaps even a dash of her ethnicity -- all in the name of making a buck.  God knows it ain't easy making any scratch playing jazz (or singing it), and if she can doing either, I think it's hard to begrudge her that.

Maybe her promoters (and/or her most ardent supporters), are guilty of making her out to be more than she really is -- that I'll perhaps grant you.

But there's gotta be a hundred of other musicians we could rail on equally, but I suspect none of them will get their very own thread for us to cuss and discuss them -- simply because they haven't got her same unique demographic 'biography' combo going for them.

I fully realize that some -- probably many (maybe even most) -- of us are pretty enlightened about gender-politics.  Who the hell here isn't an ardent fan of Ingrid Jensen, or Helen Sung, or Carla Bley (or a dozen other names I could mention) -- and a good number of you have genuine musical colleagues who are women, who you respect, dig, collaborate with, and some of you probably have even hired (I don't want that to go unrecognized).  Never the less, this thread could go any of several ways.  Here's my post to nudge it back in some other sort of direction.  FWIW.

[JSngry]

3 minutes ago, Rooster_Ties said:

The undercurrent in this thread is that maybe she's some sort of "sell-out" (or at least a bit).  Or that she's traded on her youth (though that clock's ticking), and her gender, and perhaps even a dash of her ethnicity -- all in the name of making a buck. 

Seriously?

[Rooster_Ties]

13 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Seriously?

Under the surface?  Yeah, maybe.  I don't know for sure, but what's the point of picking on her? - when the same could be said of so many others?

I'm sure that's not the stated intention of any one individual posting here, but collectively - bit by bit - might what all's said here add up to the not unreasonable perception of that?  (Accurate or not.)

47 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I've "seen" her play live fairly recently, there are YouTube videos. And although the skills have become more fluent, the content - as I hear it - remains about the same, which is to say, honestly, that I don't give a shit, not even a little bit. Those who do, enjoy, it's there for you, and unless tragedy befall this still-young life, will be for a long time to come.

Now, do you mean have I been in the same room as she was while she was playing? No, I have not, nor do I plan, under the current dynamic, on my life going in a direction where that ever happens. Fate, cruel three-legged mutton that it is, might have other outcomes in store, but we'll deal with that if and when it happens.

I know you well enough, Jim (Jesus, "57,000+ posts" here (plus the old BNBB) well enough, for going on 18-19 years) to know what you didn't mean here.  But it's hard not to look at this post, out of the context of the Jim I think I know -- and not read this (superficially) as meaning something a little different than what I think you probably intended.

And yeah, I fully realize you could have said the same exact damn thing about some random guy who plays the way she does -- and nobody would think for an instant about busting your balls over it.  Maybe that isn't fair.  Probably isn't.  Doesn't mean that outsiders looking at this thread in total -- people who don't know us might well think [we think] she deserves some extra criticism simply because of her gender.

Sorry, but yeah, seriously.  What you meant wasn't wrong, I ain't suggesting that.  I'm just not sure you said what you meant.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Rooster_Ties

[JSngry]

Oh, I said exactly what I meant. And I'd say the same thing about Eric Alexander (to go back a generation), and have. I really don't want to hear her. Or him. Or too much of any of that. It lacks reality to me.

I do kind of take offense to the notion that she must have "had it" because of her activities with Phil Woods and Lee Konitz. That's where the matter of strong parental financial support comes in. It's not like there's some other kids who display potential out there, but to get Phil Woods or Lee Konitz to engage/record/etc., they're not volunteer workers. dig? And I'm not saying that they whored out for the bread, just that all things being equal, you find a kid in Rustynail, Montana, they can play, you encourage them, make a friend, stay in touch, etc. But you don't do record dates and other visible encouragements at that level of visibility without getting something back. That's not bad, either, that's how it works. She had "enough" that they could take the money and not feel bad about it, but that's something different, right?

So yes, she can play. And yes, she's done and is doing the work. That is how it should be, always. But I don't care if Chevrolet's making better cars than ever, they're still not making Hondas. Times have moved on, things are different now. Let's see if Tesla makes a real run, maybe we can in a few years say, say, Honda's making better cars than ever, but they're still not making Teslas. Or maybe we can say that Tesla promised big but delivered small. Either way, Chevrolet is not The Car Of Today, Tomorrow, or ever again.

I actually like that she's doing her pop-approach and all the fashion/choreography stuff. These are the times, and more people engaging in that instead of looking backward in memorium. But I do not have any interest in hearing her except in passing (if that).

[catesta]

Now, I'm offended!

Honda over Chevy, shame on you.

[JSngry]

per the captain, Dinah Shore shoes, dinosaur shoes.

not just clever, accurate!

[Brad]

2 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

Are there some other 25-year old male sax-players we can rail on too?  Because I'd just about bet a couple of my OOP Mosaic sets that there's a shit-ton more guys her age who play just as well (or not well) as she does -- or in contexts that just don't really cut it.

I can't say I've listened to her much, though I'm sure I've streamed a video or two over the last 8+ years since she came on the scene.

But if she's not my cup of tea (and I can't imagine she is), it's not like she's purporting to be either.  She has some sort of audience, and she's playing however she's playing (and apparently singing too), at least semi-consistent with what her following seems to like.  And probably paying some bills along the way too.

The undercurrent in this thread is that maybe she's some sort of "sell-out" (or at least a bit).  Or that she's traded on her youth (though that clock's ticking), and her gender, and perhaps even a dash of her ethnicity -- all in the name of making a buck.  God knows it ain't easy making any scratch playing jazz (or singing it), and if she can doing either, I think it's hard to begrudge her that.

Maybe her promoters (and/or her most ardent supporters), are guilty of making her out to be more than she really is -- that I'll perhaps grant you.

But there's gotta be a hundred of other musicians we could rail on equally, but I suspect none of them will get their very own thread for us to cuss and discuss them -- simply because they haven't got her same unique demographic 'biography' combo going for them.

I fully realize that some -- probably many (maybe even most) -- of us are pretty enlightened about gender-politics.  Who the hell here isn't an ardent fan of Ingrid Jensen, or Helen Sung, or Carla Bley (or a dozen other names I could mention) -- and a good number of you have genuine musical colleagues who are women, who you respect, dig, collaborate with, and some of you probably have even hired (I don't want that to go unrecognized).  Never the less, this thread could go any of several ways.  Here's my post to nudge it back in some other sort of direction.  FWIW.

My sense when reading the first page of this thread this morning was similar to RT’s, something like you guys are being unduly picky.  If the complaint that her playing is mainstream and just playing standards or whatever and staying in a certain style, I suppose that is true but I’m sure a lot of people play like that.   

[AllenLowe]

Jim is exactly right about her. At her best, she knows how to play, but is and was an extremely shallow soloist. It's the quality of her ideas which is lacking.

Edited March 6, 2018 by AllenLowe

[Rooster_Ties]

11 minutes ago, AllenLowe said:

Jim is exactly right about her. At her best, she knows how to play, but is and was an extremely shallow soloist. It's the quality of her ideas which is lacking.

Great, but so what?  That's true of damn near everybody - isn't it?  OK, not everybody, but surely the great majority of players who are barely 25 years old.  Or 35 years old, for that matter (judging from my experience as a listener).

Why pick on her?  I mean, the criticism of her probably isn't unwarranted -- but absent the criticism of others, it does seem a bit extreme to single her out.  IMHO, of course.

EDIT:  And for that matter, there are renown jazz players who've recorded on 100's of albums -- who I feel the exact same way about.  And I could name a couple uber-fantastic players who are absolutely capable of playing inspired solos -- who have technique out the ears -- who I've heard phoning it in (live on the bandstand) more often than not.  Granted, at an incredibly high level -- but still phoning it in (at their level).

For instance, since I lived back in Kansas City for a good 10 years overlapping with him -- I can't tell you how many times I've heard none other than Bobby Watson, for instance, playing relatively tired stuff -- with incredible technical sophistication -- song after song, chorus after chorus.  I've also heard him playing his ass off too -- but the tired stuff was more the norm.  Crowd always loved it, though, because technically it was fast and admittedly fantastic.

So what if she's a shallow soloist.  That's true of 8/10 players in this world, if you ask me.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Rooster_Ties

[JSngry]

waitwaitwaitwaitwait....WAIT. Ok?

The very first words of this thread were

Thoughts on Grace Kelly?

So if somebody doesn't like her at all (nothing to do with gender/age/ethnicity, just DON'T HAVE ANY INTEREST) that's being "unduly picky"? We're responding to a solicitation of thoughts about one specific player and it's "picking on her"?

Let me reiterate - she's a hard working, serious, skilled musician, all of which is admirable, and she's fully empowering herself to be whoever the fuck she wants to be, and that is definitely admirable, but when it comes down to her playing, which in a perfect world is what it should always come down to, I really could not care less.

I don't think that's being picky, unduly or otherwise. The OP asked for thoughts, here they are.

Now, somebody start a thread requesting thoughts about anybody else whose playing I don't care about, regardless of gender/age/ethnicity, the answer will be the same.

I hope she makes a millionzillion buck and inspires a generation. But y'all...y'all need to get real about this shit.

[Rooster_Ties]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

And I'd say the same thing about Eric Alexander (to go back a generation), and have. I really don't want to hear her. Or him. Or too much of any of that. It lacks reality to me.

I do not have any interest in hearing her except in passing (if that).

All I was saying, Jim, was that ABSENT the context of saying that she's just like a whole lot of other players (and naming a few), some of this thread otherwise comes off as pretty mean-spirited, IMHO.

But I think you mentioning Eric Alexander puts your prior thoughts in the proper context, and that's what was needed, to help clarify WHY you felt the way you did.

Brad (up-thread about 3 posts) picked up on the same thing I did.  Of course I know the context of some of the participants here.  But just reading over the thread, and not connecting exactly who's saying exactly what -- then I think what's being said takes on a sizably different tone.

Not trying to come down on you exclusively, Jim, but I know you and I can dialog on this and neither one of us will get too overly bent out of shape about it.  (Also, yours was the most recent posts I was seeing here, that prompted me to chime in.)

I mean, she is who she is, and plays how she plays - and doesn't seem to self-purport otherwise.  So I'm not sure where there's too much to complain about here.  Other than Phil Woods taking a shine to her (or Lee Konitz apparently, which I wasn't aware of), I don't think anyone here would pay her no nevermind.

For the record, I've never connected with Phil Woods' music (any of his own leader-days) in my entire life (from what I've heard, anyway).  So his involvement in her success (especially early success) hardly seems to matter, at least to me.  I have a ton more respect for Konitz, though (than Woods) - but to be perfectly honest, I only have a smattering of his records -- but I gather Konitz has played with Kelly on some occasions(?) - rather than really mentoring her like Woods did.

Anyway, the world is filled with overrated child prodigies, far as I'm concerned (or, rather, almost every child prodigy I've ever heard has not lived up to all their early hype) -- but that's how it is with people who find success at an early age (maybe 15 isn't young enough to be in that category, but it's close).  And my point is:  How is it newsworthy that someone who had a outsized amount of success at a very early age, that they didn't live up to the hype??

[clifford_thornton]

Hey, I know a few 25-30 year old saxophonists. Some are more original than others. None of them are getting real money gigs or the endorsements of their elders -- but they do put in the work. We'll see at the end of the day how it all turns out. I know at least one altoist who thought about going the Grace Kelly way, he claims, and made an about face to do something else musically.

I think we all know that for women to get somewhere in this music they have to work a lot harder and possibly sell out more often than their xy counterparts. And I think that implicitly we might judge young women playing this music a bit more harshly than we would an older bloke playing the same stuff. But that also doesn't mean we can't critique a young woman's playing/approach if it doesn't work for us. 

[JSngry]

it's condescending as fuck to think that she needs to be "protected" or whatever this is...shielded, whatever, from the "criticism" of serious listeners who don't like her playing. She's a successful adult with a successful adult career and is hopefully making serious adult career bucks. If she gave even half a rat's ass about what "people like me" think, she'd no be doing what she's doing as successfully as she is.

Are there some other 25-year old male sax-players we can rail on too? 

I'm sure there are, but I'm blissfully unaware of them, and, completely like Grace Kelley, I'd prefer to keep it that way. But if you wanna play that game, point some out and we can play Eric Alexander redux. You might be surprised at what a total waste of time that turns out to be in terms of moving things ahead, but that's a rich irony best enjoyed with a nice hot cup of decaf.

[Larry Kart]

The idea that Jim was picking on Grace Kelly is absurd.

And here's an altoist who's just a few years older:
 

 

[Hot Ptah]

36 minutes ago, Rooster_Ties said:

Great, but so what?  That's true of damn near everybody - isn't it?  OK, not everybody, but surely the great majority of players who are barely 25 years old.  Or 35 years old, for that matter (judging from my experience as a listener).

Why pick on her?  I mean, the criticism of her probably isn't unwarranted -- but absent the criticism of others, it does seem a bit extreme to single her out.  IMHO, of course.

EDIT:  And for that matter, there are renown jazz players who've recorded on 100's of albums -- who I feel the exact same way about.  And I could name a couple uber-fantastic players who are absolutely capable of playing inspired solos -- who have technique out the ears -- who I've heard phoning it in (live on the bandstand) more often than not.  Granted, at an incredibly high level -- but still phoning it in (at their level).

For instance, since I lived back in Kansas City for a good 10 years overlapping with him -- I can't tell you how many times I've heard none other than Bobby Watson, for instance, playing relatively tired stuff -- with incredible technical sophistication -- song after song, chorus after chorus.  I've also heard him playing his ass off too -- but the tired stuff was more the norm.  Crowd always loved it, though, because technically it was fast and admittedly fantastic.

So what if she's a shallow soloist.  That's true of 8/10 players in this world, if you ask me.

That is really true about Bobby Watson in Kansas City, sadly enough.

One thing I take from this thread. How often do we discuss how much we like and positively appreciate new jazz--a new musician or group just becoming known, or a new album or song which we really like? I wish we would do more of that. It is important to place the lack of contribution of an artistically challenged musician into proper historical context. Do we often comment on something new which warrants our genuine praise?

[JSngry]

45 minutes ago, Rooster_Ties said:

For instance, since I lived back in Kansas City for a good 10 years overlapping with him -- I can't tell you how many times I've heard none other than Bobby Watson, for instance, playing relatively tired stuff -- with incredible technical sophistication -- song after song, chorus after chorus.  I've also heard him playing his ass off too -- but the tired stuff was more the norm.  Crowd always loved it, though, because technically it was fast and admittedly fantastic.

So what if she's a shallow soloist.  That's true of 8/10 players in this world, if you ask me.

And i don't really give that much of a half-fuck about Bobby Watson for exactly that reason. Or most of today's "jazz" for that matter. There was a time when redundancy was needed because the culture was bigger, broader, and less immediately reachable. That world, all of it, is either gone, or so far gone as to might as well be gone. I don't want to hear the last gasps of that, I want to hear people who give me hope, not so much for my future, fuck me, I'll be dead in probably what, 10-20 years? and not so much my kids, because, they've got their own battles to fight, but my granddaughter, specifically her. I want to hear people who are looking forward to a living, exciting greatness of possibilities. What pleasure I get from listening to old music made by dead people is in part nostalgic, but also in part because, you know, those guys were moving ahead, there were journeys implicit and explicit in so much of that music.

I don't get any out of that from Grace Kelley and/or any other of these people, because they're taking a test where everybody already knows the answer. It's not just jazz, it seems to be life in general, we have become afraid of the future and the unknown therein. Not without good reason, perhaps, but, you know, fuck fear, fear as a lifestyle does not have a happy ending.

24 minutes ago, Rooster_Ties said:

Brad (up-thread about 3 posts) picked up on the same thing I did.  Of course I know the context of some of the participants here.  But just reading over the thread, and not connecting exactly who's saying exactly what -- then I think what's being said takes on a sizably different tone.

Y'all are both crazy then.

[Larry Kart]

20 minutes ago, Hot Ptah said:

That is really true about Bobby Watson in Kansas City, sadly enough.

One thing I take from this thread. How often do we discuss how much we like and positively appreciate new jazz--a new musician or group just becoming known, or a new album or song which we really like? I wish we would do more of that. It is important to place the lack of contribution of an artistically challenged musician into proper historical context. Do we often comment on something new which warrants our genuine praise?

I just did above -- Nick Mazzarella.

[Hot Ptah]

1 hour ago, Larry Kart said:

I just did above -- Nick Mazzarella.

Larry, in the past few years you have presented many positive comments about young Chicago musicians, and motivated me to check them out. What you have done is the positive sort of thing I am talking about. 

[Milestones]

Wow, I never expected so many posts and the intriguing twists to the conversation.  

We all want to find the musician who stands out, and our ears are the ultimate judge; but it's also good to know what our kindred spirits hear and how they evaluate.  

 

[jlhoots]

Jeez - who would think that Grace Kelly (Jim - that's Kelly) would cause such a kerfuffle.

[Brad]

What’s the old saw: bad publicity is better than none. This thread got people to check her out. I saw from her concert tour she’s appearing with the Rippingtons in Pennsylvania.  Not something I’d pay money for.