connoisseur series500 Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 This ought to be interesting. I know that many people hate those mini-lp style cases of the JRVGs, but the TOCJs often miss out on extra tracks. Which sound better? Let's have your thoughts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted March 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 I haven't voted yet; I'll wait awhile to see what others say first. Damn, I should have included a "I Don't Know" choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted March 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 One thing is for sure: I don't like those mini-lp style jackets. They're cute and all but that cd slides out whether you plan to listen to it or not! (sounds like a part of the male anatomy! ) Then they've got that lp facsimile at the back of jacket which lists the songs on the cd. You discover that the cd has a couple of extra tracks and you have to peer at the inside notes to get the song listings. I've been thinking about moving the JRVG discs to hard cd cases whenever I listen to them. Hurts aesthetically, but it's better than having the cd roll on to the floor when I pick up the jacket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son-of-a-Weizen Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 The extra tracks w/JRVGs is a relatively new phenomena. The first 250 of 'em or so had the same number of tracks as the TOCJs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted March 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 (edited) The extra tracks w/JRVGs is a relatively new phenomena. The first 250 of 'em or so had the same number of tracks as the TOCJs. so which do you prefer, Weizy? You're probably one of the experts on this. Waiting for Grey's comments too, though he has already indicated to me that it differs case by case. Edited March 7, 2004 by connoisseur series500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted March 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 For the record, I decided not to vote at all. I've never had the opportunity to compare them side by side. I've never owned a JRVG and TOCJ of the same cd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 I like both series, but actually prefer the JRVGs if I have a choice. If you adjust for polarity (yes, I'm a believer in this) when necessary, the sound is very good or suits me I should say. I like the packaging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted March 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 So far we've got a tie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son-of-a-Weizen Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 so which do you prefer, Weizy? You're probably one of the experts on this. Waiting for Grey's comments too, though he has already indicated to me that it differs case by case. No...not an expert by any stretch. With my present system, I'd give the edge to the TOCJs because of the very full sounding bottom. The JRVGs tend to sound crisper, up-front, loud & clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted March 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 I remember a couple people on this board (Weizy was one of them) who wanted to trade TOCJs for JRVGs or JRVGs for TOCJs. I cannot recall which sets they wanted to trade. Can you remind us please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son-of-a-Weizen Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 ......I forgot to add in an example. The TOCJ of 'Delightfulee' sounds better to me than the JRVG, which seems a bit overpowering at the high end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bol Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 I really prefer the TOCJs -- both in terms of sound and in terms of packaging. I find the TOCJ sound to be the best of the Blue Notes available. With RVGs, I get the sense that I am being assaulted. And for some reason, and I'm not sure I can articulate this properly, but with TOCJs I get the sense that all of the Blue Notes have some sort of continuity. Whether the recording I'm listening to is some early hard bop in the 1500 series or some avant garde in the 4100 series, I get the sense that there is a continuity and sort of logical progression among the albums. When I listen to RVGs on the other hand, I feel like the recordings from different time periods are totally different animals altogether. I don't think I articulated that well. But so it goes. In terms of packaging, I'd rather get the domestic RVGs than the JRVGs. Hate those mini-LPs. They look great the first couple of weeks, and then they show wear. And it's such a hastle getting the CDs out. After acquiring some mini-LPs (BN and others) when I first started to listen to jazz, I've slowly replaced all of them. I only have two now -- Curtis Fuller's "Blues-ette" and Zoot Sims's "If I am Lucky". And I am hoping that remastered versions of these would be released domestically soon so that I can replace my copies with jewel case versions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 As some posters probably know (), I prefer TOCJs. Many - if not most - (J)RVGs have a very narrow soundstage and sound very aggressive to my ears and on my system; it's as if the mid and high frequencies are "pumped up", as an Organissimo member once said in an e-mail to me. They give me headaches and that's the last thing I want when I'm listening to music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted March 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 (edited) JRVGs are getting their butts wumped! Everyone likes TOCJs! (Maybe I can work out some trades here to let go some of my TOCJs...) Where are the JRVG fans? Edited March 7, 2004 by connoisseur series500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Johnson Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 I remember a couple people on this board (Weizy was one of them) who wanted to trade TOCJs for JRVGs or JRVGs for TOCJs. I cannot recall which sets they wanted to trade. Can you remind us please? It was me! I'm trying to exchange the following JRVG's for TOCJ's: Byrd in Hand Wailing with Lou Davis Cup Sunny Side Up The Latin Bit Any takers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted March 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 Do you want to trade the same titles? I can offer Grant Green, "Sunday Mornin" TOCJ for its JRVG equivalent (as long as its got that extra track on it.) Would also trade it for your Lou Donaldson, "Wailing with Lou" And you guys thought I started this thread with the idea of learning stuff about the two formats...well, there's some of that, but trading is also what it's about! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Shearn Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 I have one JRVG, "Jimmy Smith Plays Fats Waller". It sounds pretty good to my ears, compared to a lot of the U.S. RVG's I have which tend to sound inconsistent (some sound great with a nice midrange, some over trebly, some with the "A.M. Radio" sound that others have described here) as for the packaging, after opening the disc, I immediately transferred the disc to a jewel case, and then put the mini LP sleeve in a hard plastic case, where it is stored with my only other mini LP, "CTI Summer Jazz" at the Hollywood Bowl". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 The JRVG of Sunday Mornin' that I have does NOT have any additional tracks. That very consistency that is mentioned about the TOCJs is one reason I'm a little dissatisfied with some and often prefer the sound of the JRVGs. That consistency seems to be eq application across the series to make it all sound the same. Date after date from RVGs studios and other studios did NOT sound the same. Anyway, to each their own--we're lucky to have several versions to choose from when we do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 I think people who are heavily into audio (I wouldn't consider myself one of them) prefer the TOCJs generally. They seem to have a warmer sound. Myself, although I do have a good system, like them both and would second grey's thought that you have to look at them on a case by case basis. AT's Delight for example is not a good JRVG and when I had the chance to get the TOCJ I grabbed it. I kind of like the mini lp format although it is hard on the eyes. Although I voted for JRVGs, I could have really gone for TOCJ on this. I know it's been mentioned before and it's not part of this discussion but the VICJs beat JRVGs hand down in my opinion in all areas: sound and the mini lp case themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bol Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 I think people who are heavily into audio (I wouldn't consider myself one of them) prefer the TOCJs generally. They seem to have a warmer sound. Myself, although I do have a good system, like them both and would second grey's thought that you have to look at them on a case by case basis. AT's Delight for example is not a good JRVG and when I had the chance to get the TOCJ I grabbed it. I kind of like the mini lp format although it is hard on the eyes. Although I voted for JRVGs, I could have really gone for TOCJ on this. I know it's been mentioned before and it's not part of this discussion but the VICJs beat JRVGs hand down in my opinion in all areas: sound and the mini lp case themselves. Well, I have a very simple system. A mini-system from Denon. But I still prefer the TOCJs. On the VICJ front, I agree totally. The 20-bit K2 remastering seems to beat all other standard CD remastering. Too bad Blue Note has not used this system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted March 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 JRVG lovers have come back and narrowed the gap considerably. Looks like this poll isn't going to provide any definitive answers as to which format is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 On the VICJ front, I agree totally. The 20-bit K2 remastering seems to beat all other standard CD remastering. Too bad Blue Note has not used this system. It's not only the K2 system; even more important is who did the remastering. Tamaki Beck was the wizard behind the Japanese K2 remasters; apparently he's got golden ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrdlu Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 As Weizen said, most existing JRVGs have only the tracks that were on the LPs, so the number of tracks is not usually an issue, making the sound comparison the main thing - unless one strongly dislikes the mini LP covers. Those JRVGs that do have bonus tracks are sonically identical to their domestic counterparts, so there's no need to spend the extra on the Japanese versions. This topic has been throughly discussed over the years. My take on it is that the TOCJs ("Blue Note Works", strictly speaking) are the definitive BN reissues, period. I like the sound on all that I've heard, and you get a good-size facsimile of the LP back cover - I really love those. The sound on the JRVGs has been well described as a "crap shoot". There are quite a few that I like, but there are some with "AM radio" sound that need quite a bass boost. Those can usually be fixed up by twiddling the tone controls, unlike a lot of "you-know-who's" stuff. There are none that I actually hate. There is another important point. The TOCJs of albums that were originally issued on 1500 and 4000 series LPs are derived from LP masters, rather than the original session reels. The JRVGs (and RVGs) are all of more recent origin, and are taken directly from the session tapes (where these still exist, and most of them do). So, if there is by now any deterioration on the tapes, this will be heard on the JRVG, but not on its TOCJ counterpart. Examples include "Dippin'" (Hank Mobley) and "The Horace Silver Trio" (which features Horace Silver, I think). So, although I never vote on these threads, my vote goes for TOCJ rather than Kerry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcoliv Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 i can't vote since i don't own many of TOCJ's/JRVG's to have a decent opinion but i really like the mini-LP cases even with the unreadable back covers. Marcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert h. Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 JRVG by a country mile. The huge increase in resolution, depth, tonality and sheer musicality leaves the mellow, fuzzy TOCJ's in the dust. I will admit, however, that people with poor digital and/or bright tweeters might prefer the rolled off, soft focus TOCJ's. The music is on the RVG's, that is closest to being in the studio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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