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Rich Versus Roach


Larry Kart

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In part because of a recent spirited exchange of views on Rich on another board, in part because I just ran across it, I picked up the CD reissue  (with alternate takes added) of this 1959 album, expecting Heaven knows what all -- maybe some sort of bloodbath --  and to my surprise find it quite fascinating, at once playful and serious. Rich's band of the time (Phil Woods, Willie Dennis, John Bunch, Phil Leshin) is in one channel, Roach's (Tommy and Stanley Turrentine, Julian Priester, Bob Boswell) in the other, charts are by Gigi Gryce (efficient or more than that), horn soloists are all on their games, as are the co-leaders. In their numerous exchanges, Roach gains points, if that's the way to put it, through meaningful obliqueness and typical tymp-like timbral variations, while Buddy, though he's certainly his own self by and large, fairly often tries and succeeds in working variations on what Max has just played -- the tone of Rich's responses being (so it seems to me) a blend of challenge and curiosity/respect. Also, there's one 4:30 track, "Figure Eights," that is entirely no b.s. exchanges (mostly "eights") between the two. Fascinating again, and also kind of moving in that everyone involved seems to me to have put aside the potential showbiz nature of the project and just played their asses off. Jack Tracy was the A&R man.

 

 

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Better than expected, yes. Fascinating, not so sure about that. First heard it in the 70s (when it was always in print, thanks to Buddy's name, I'm sure), and found the horns to be sort of "tagged on", would not buy the record for any of the horn players. But you've got two exceptionally gifted drummers meeting and exchanging on totally equal footing. If the record could have been made 30-40 years later on Soul Note, there would be no horns, and there would be no "confrontational" tone to the packaging.

It's a drum record.

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Just now, JSngry said:

Better than expected, yes. Fascinating, not so sure about that. First heard it in the 70s (when it was always in print, thanks to Buddy's name, I'm sure), and found the horns to be sort of "tagged on", would not buy the record for any of the horn players. But you've got two exceptionally gifted drummers meeting and exchanging on totally equal footing. If the record could have been made 30-40 years later on Soul Note, there would be no horns, and there would be no "confrontational" tone to the packaging.

It's a drum record.

Word.

Coda:  It's always been interesting to me the way Buddy (particularly through the influence of Roach) modernized his cymbal beat and left-hand accents during the '50s and '60s without losing the swing era roots of is beat. Later he played his own version of rock and funk. Has any drummer in jazz traveled as far --  from "Hawaiian War Chant" to Zawinul's "Birdland"? 

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1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Better than expected, yes. Fascinating, not so sure about that. First heard it in the 70s (when it was always in print, thanks to Buddy's name, I'm sure), and found the horns to be sort of "tagged on", would not buy the record for any of the horn players. But you've got two exceptionally gifted drummers meeting and exchanging on totally equal footing. If the record could have been made 30-40 years later on Soul Note, there would be no horns, and there would be no "confrontational" tone to the packaging.

It's a drum record.

I think all the horn solos are quite committed and at least one of Tommy Turrentine's to be top-notch -- IIRC it's on the alternate  take of "Limehouse Blues."

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I had an LP reissue early in my collector's beginnings, and now have it as part of the Max Roach Plus Four Mosaic box. Taken as a drum battle, I always found Max Roach won by points, as he took more chances, while Rich played it rather safe relying on his machine gun technical precision. 

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2 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

I think all the horn solos are quite committed...

Of course they're committed, they're just not particularly relevant to the record. It's like, ok, nobody's going to buy a record of all drum solos, they all sound alike, so we need tunes for people to identify first. So let's slap on some heads and throw in some horn solos, that way people won't get bored and confused.

Well, ok, but not all drum solos sound alike, these two drummers definitely do not sound alike (does anybody pay attention to kit tunings these days anyway?) and like I said, in a parallel universe, this record could have been made with just drum solos, as a "conversation" instead of a "battle", and then that would be that.

 

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1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Of course they're committed, they're just not particularly relevant to the record. It's like, ok, nobody's going to buy a record of all drum solos, they all sound alike, so we need tunes for people to identify first. So let's slap on some heads and throw in some horn solos, that way people won't get bored and confused.

Well, ok, but not all drum solos sound alike, these two drummers definitely do not sound alike (does anybody pay attention to kit tunings these days anyway?) and like I said, in a parallel universe, this record could have been made with just drum solos, as a "conversation" instead of a "battle", and then that would be that.

 

I see your point, but I just took the album for the more or less organic 1959 entity it was/seemed to be. Further, I think the committed nature of the solos to some degree may have stimulated the drummers who accompanied them. I can certainly hear (or think I can) how the way Rich stokes his guys and Roach  stokes his then stokes their own solo work. Further, I like the fact that the potentially cheesy "duel of drummers" setup and  the relative brevity of the horn solos doesn't lead those soloists to slack off. Finally, given the relative sparsity of Willie Dennis (1926-85) on record, I'm pleased to hear a fair bit more from him, especially from when he was in his prime.

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