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Carla Bley in the New Yorker


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6 hours ago, medjuck said:

IIRC sometime in the '70s there was a published rumor in the UK that Jack Bruce was putting together a band that included Bley and Mick Taylor  as well as a couple of other interesting players who I can't remember.  it wasn't clear what kind of music they would be playing. Of course it never happened. 

Actually, this band did happen and is on a few of Jack's official releases. There's even video:

Again, I have a strong appreciation for much of Bley's music but Bruce's is some of my favorite vocal rock music of any era--and having listened to a lot of what Bley has done and (I think) most of what Bruce recorded, I'd say that this band was kind of middling for both folks. I don't think that Bley's talents as an instrumentalist really benefit in a context in which she isn't the focus (and in which the arrangement is more or less tailored to spotlight her manner of off-kilter composer's piano, ala "War Orphans" or her feature on Relativity Suite), as was the case in this project. Bruce's voice was in the midst of a transition and it's pretty rough going for most of this band's appearances, and the other big star in the ensemble (Taylor) was relegated to a perplexing middle-ground between warmed-over Claptonisms and pseudo-Robben Ford stuff. 

Tangent time: I have no idea what the party line on proper jazz-rock is anymore (vs. the more overt avant-gardeisms of the Canterbury bands or the more aggressively experimental stuff emanating from the likes of John Stevens, Trevor Watts, or even--to stretch the genre to its limits--some of the South African improvisers of that vintage), and Jack's appearances within this axis always struck me as kind of peripheral to the action (occupied as he often was with more commercial fare). But I'd commit to the notion that the studio versions of much of the repertoire from the Bley-Taylor band--the things from Harmony Row especially--are abso-fucking-lutely brilliant. As more "rock with a jazz inflection" rather than "jazz with a rock inflection," the music sounds at once experimental, fluid, and fully-realized. 

Example (featuring Chris Spedding and John Marshall of Nucleus):

 

 

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Thanks for that, Jim--similar to how it goes with internet discourse, a lot more is communicated through tone and visuals than one might grok from text interviews. So this confirms a bit of my suspicion--i.e., that the staid mechanics of her later bands are intentional, or at least the upshot of certain aesthetic preferences.

On the other hand, what she says about Valente is instructive. Bley seems to have a preoccupation with order and structure that is in tension with a lot of her (at least from my perspective) most interesting music. It's as if, especially in light of what she says about free jazz, Ayler, Ornette, Elton Dean, Brotzmann, etc., her takeaway from the avant-garde of the last century is everything but the mechanics--an inversion of a lot of the other compositional music related to or descended from classic free jazz (i.e., where the mechanics remain but the compositional stuff is replaced). 

This piece is pretty telling:

Iverson, for one, seems to favor Ballad of the Fallen, though while I very much enjoy it, it seems to lack the shattering fervor that I love so much about the first LMO album. Both albums utilize similar source material (at least in terms of sound and structure), but on Ballad the filigree of abstraction is stripped away and confined. The solos on this piece in particular seem to emanate from a different environment entirely, Cherry almost cut-and-pasted from an Old and New Dreams record. The rhythmic nebulousness and aggressive dissonance on his solo are almost too disconnected from everything else, at least until the ripieno enters. It feels like a stark contrast to his episodes on this suite from the first LMO, which bubble up from the ensemble ether and subsequently direct the action of the full band:

Different time periods, recording environment/fidelity, etc. etc., and yes there's a deliberate sense of collage on "El Quinto Regimiento," but I think the first LMO album is the only one to really get the programmatic underpinning "right"--i.e., that revolution is violent, populist, and uncontrolled. Maybe this isn't the music Carla (or Haden) wanted to make, but I certainly think that it's the more powerful document--incidentally, Bley sounds freaking awesome banging away in the midst of this free tempo chaos. 

Edited by ep1str0phy
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If I'm going to "argue" anything about Carla Bley, it's just that she's doing what she wants to be doing with all of it, and criticism of her musics seem too often to be based on something the listener wants but does not get, which of course is not at all a problem for anybody unless and until the difference is perceived as a deficiency. Same thing with, for example, Paul Desmond, he was who he was, he was always going to be who he was, and if somebody doesn't like that, then it's not because of any deficiency.

To that end, I do very much believe that she's got the whole "evolved Puritan" thing at her core, has always had it, and it's too late to turn back now. Again, I don't see that as in any way a determent. It's a determinative factor.

I was really struck, though, and again, by how frail she looks now, and how she has these ticks from time to time, how she goes from lucidity to withdrawn back to lucidity. And this one with her and Steve Swallow, you very much get the sense of a old couple growing olderer together...dare I call it sweet? We should all be so lucky to grown old with this type of relationship to prop us up as the years take life way bit by irrevocable bit.

 

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On 5/23/2018 at 11:18 AM, AllenLowe said:

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I think what I meant to say was SCHMUCK. Dane.

And btw, I have not used either word (until this post) on this thread. This, btw, is the kind of petty snottiness that, in the past, hurt this place. But then is then, now is now.

 

 

If it was just once, or once in a while, then it's a brain glitch and we all get them and I'd owe you an apology.  But when it's all the time, then I can only conclude that you're not thinking about what you're saying and why should I think about it either.  As for Carla, whatever the importance of Escalator or other work, surely it can be either under or over estimated, but saying the opposite of what you seem to mean weakens whatever you're trying to say, as does overstating it in sweeping terms.  But there is something very broad brush about much of  it that I often find off-putting, except in the Rota piece I posted above.

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On 23/05/2018 at 7:37 PM, medjuck said:

IIRC sometime in the '70s there was a published rumor in the UK that Jack Bruce was putting together a band that included Bley and Mick Taylor  as well as a couple of other interesting players who I can't remember.  it wasn't clear what kind of music they would be playing. Of course it never happened. 

Spot on. I remember reading this story in ‘Melody Maker’ - around 75/76.

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2 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

If it was just once, or once in a while, then it's a brain glitch and we all get them and I'd owe you an apology.  But when it's all the time, then I can only conclude that you're not thinking about what you're saying and why should I think about it either. 

It's a verbal tick - and, so what?  

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46 minutes ago, Simon Weil said:

It's a verbal tick - and, so what?  

It bugs me, obviously, but not nearly as much as getting expressions wrong like saying 'underestimated' instead of overestimated or 'can be' for can't.   It's hard enough to understand others when they do say what they mean...  and I do think this connects to Carla's work, somehow.

Edited by danasgoodstuff
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3 minutes ago, danasgoodstuff said:

It bugs me, obviously, but not nearly as much as getting expressions wrong like saying 'underestimated' instead of overestimated or 'can be' for can't'.   It's hard enough to understand others when they do say what they mean...  and I do think this connects to Carla's work, somehow.

I was on a scholarly discussion group for a while and one of the big names came on and said (paraphrasing) this is internet discussion and people are going to make mistakes - holding them to a "finished works" standard is over the top.

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37 minutes ago, Simon Weil said:

I was on a scholarly discussion group for a while and one of the big names came on and said (paraphrasing) this is internet discussion and people are going to make mistakes - holding them to a "finished works" standard is over the top.

That's an empty argument. They might as well have said "This is a magazine article, and holding people to a finished works standard is over the top" or "This is a novel, and holding people to a finished works standard is over the top."

Even if it were *not* an empty argument, it misses the point about what the internet (or rather, the web) is, the place it takes in modern society, and the place it will take as historical document in the future so utterly and completely that it is not worth bothering with. Consider this: if I make a mistake in a scientific article I publish, or in a book I publish, given the stranglehold the publishing houses currently have on copyright law it is nearly impossible to find that mistake with a simple search, and the number of people who will be influenced by my mistake will be limited to those who read the hardcopy. If, on the other hand, I make a mistake in a post here, it's a simple Google search (Bing search, for the unsophisitcates) away. A mistake in this forum, if anything, will have a larger impact on the world, and should therefore count as a more grievous one.

For those tempted to go the register or authority argument at this point, I invite you to turn to a high school or even college student acquaintance and ask them whether they use the web or books as sources for their papers. (If they say "books" they are statistically probably lying.)

Grumble, grumble.

So, tell me more about this jazz thing. I hear it's nice.

Edited by lipi
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I wish somebody could get Toshiko (with or without Lws) to reminisce at length like this. We're in somewhat uncharted waters here, aren't we? "Jazz couples" where there's not a singer involved and where both are, by any reasonable definition, old, perhaps elderly.

Seeing Carla Bley talk in 2017/2016 and comparing that to what I know of her talking from, say 40+ years ago is...humbling. If you don't hear how she very subtly/fleetingly talks about how she learned ho to have things (or however she put it), these things are basic - home, job, business, identity. How many jazz people get this old and are left with little or any of that? And how many "eccentric" jazz people? And how many female eccentric old jazz people?

Roller-Skating Nordic-American Church Girl goes to the big city, is in the room for god only knows what kind of conversations with Cecil and Bill (the mind reels and shudders in equal measure) and in the bedroom for god only knows what kind of conversations with Paul Bley (ditto), and comes out of it, not just alive, but alive and secure and actually kind of sweet.

Forget the music (or not), as a human story, this is not a commonly told tale. It's actually pretty amazing. Enjoy it while it's still around to be enjoyed, not that many things are.

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On 5/25/2018 at 2:41 PM, danasgoodstuff said:

If it was just once, or once in a while, then it's a brain glitch and we all get them and I'd owe you an apology.  But when it's all the time, then I can only conclude that you're not thinking about what you're saying and why should I think about it either.  As for Carla, whatever the importance of Escalator or other work, surely it can be either under or over estimated, but saying the opposite of what you seem to mean weakens whatever you're trying to say, as does overstating it in sweeping terms.  But there is something very broad brush about much of  it that I often find off-putting, except in the Rota piece I posted above.

uh.....I have never written about Rota ever. But I'll refrain from making this personal. Clearly you can't talk about what I have written about until you've actually read some of it.

Edited by AllenLowe
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1 hour ago, JSngry said:

 

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

 

FWIW, a comment on the above from one Jeff Meshel (sorry for the duplication): 

  • You can watch this clip of Carla Bley and her partner Steve Swallow playing her composition ‘Lawns’, and witness as true an expression of love as can be made through music.

I’ve watched this clip of ‘Lawns’ maybe 30 times in the last month. I mean, I really like it.

She’s a character, a dynamo, hilarious and wacky and imposing. But she is first and foremost a singular composer of elusive, intriguing, beautiful songs.

Her partner Steve Swallow eschewed the double bass for an electric bass in the late 1960s, a pioneering move for a progressive jazz musician. It’s true that the bass traditionally and by nature provides support for a lead instrument. And the fact that Carla is such a strong composer (and imposing figure) that she might seem to ‘wear the pants’ (jeez, you can probably get arrested today for using that phrase) in the relationship. But when you actually listen, you see that he more than holds his own. First of all, he’s more of an instrumentalist than Carla. She’s plays a songwriter’s piano. He is a full partner in making the music.

27-04-2018-11-30-20-282x300.jpgIt’s a voyeuristic experience, watching this couple making musical love. It’s not a Hollywood Barbie and Ken Get It On scene. It’s about real humans, serious and mature and wrinkled, and real love.

This is what love at 60 should be. Not screaming and strutting or popping buttons and groaning. It’s the gentle, warm intimacy born of years of two very individual individuals living together, creating a world bigger than the sum of their own selves.

It’s love.

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12 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

FWIW, a comment on the above from one Jeff Meshel (sorry for the duplication): 

  • You can watch this clip of Carla Bley and her partner Steve Swallow playing her composition ‘Lawns’, and witness as true an expression of love as can be made through music.

I’ve watched this clip of ‘Lawns’ maybe 30 times in the last month. I mean, I really like it.

She’s a character, a dynamo, hilarious and wacky and imposing. But she is first and foremost a singular composer of elusive, intriguing, beautiful songs.

Her partner Steve Swallow eschewed the double bass for an electric bass in the late 1960s, a pioneering move for a progressive jazz musician. It’s true that the bass traditionally and by nature provides support for a lead instrument. And the fact that Carla is such a strong composer (and imposing figure) that she might seem to ‘wear the pants’ (jeez, you can probably get arrested today for using that phrase) in the relationship. But when you actually listen, you see that he more than holds his own. First of all, he’s more of an instrumentalist than Carla. She’s plays a songwriter’s piano. He is a full partner in making the music.

27-04-2018-11-30-20-282x300.jpgIt’s a voyeuristic experience, watching this couple making musical love. It’s not a Hollywood Barbie and Ken Get It On scene. It’s about real humans, serious and mature and wrinkled, and real love.

This is what love at 60 should be. Not screaming and strutting or popping buttons and groaning. It’s the gentle, warm intimacy born of years of two very individual individuals living together, creating a world bigger than the sum of their own selves.

It’s love.

I'm happy for them that that they seem to have had a long-lived relationship (both personal and musical) but that doesn't change my indifferent feelings about the music.

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Agree with Jim about Not in Our Name and Carla's Christmas Carols. Great recordings. Also like the Lost Chords Find Paolo Fresu and the (perhaps simple) humor in much of the rest. Have never tried the fusiony CB items that Jim also mentions.Looking forward to a Haden appreciation at Kennedy Center on Friday that will feature Bley with LMO and Quartet West (with Lovano for one or both).

Would the expressed lack of enthusiasm for Bley composing/arranging also apply to Haden? Just curious.

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That "Lawns" thing is just a beautiful song, period. And the tempo that Carla does it at...there's a few clips of other people doing it, their tempo is not right, and the song does not sound right without that tempo of Carla's. Tempo is time, and time, as best we can handle it, is life, When you call a tempo like that and make it work, hey, you got my highest respect, because that's a wisdom tempo, to play it that slow and that strong and let it breathe because as the song says, "cause you know it's there", that takes wisdom, life wisdom. Shirley Horn, Jimmy Scott, Eddie Harris, some classical & gospel people, who else? It's a pretty short list, no matter how long it gets, it's a pretty short list. But I'll see Carla Bley on it, that I will.

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On 5/27/2018 at 4:20 PM, AllenLowe said:

uh.....I have never written about Rota ever. But I'll refrain from making this personal. Clearly you can't talk about what I have written about until you've actually read some of it.

I didn't say you had, sorry if I gave that impression - the piece I was referring to was one of Carla's playing Rota, and I may have also been referencing something someone else wrote about her here.

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