soulpope Posted August 9, 2018 Report Share Posted August 9, 2018 34 minutes ago, JSngry said: And truthfully, to get all macro about it, what is the difference between "interactive" and "supportive" anyway? I know that the best support IS interactive and the best interaction is supportive, so...no matter how you go about it, it should all come down to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted August 9, 2018 Report Share Posted August 9, 2018 4 hours ago, Scott Dolan said: I don't like this list. It does not cater directly to my tastes and sensibilities. Really interesting comment. On the one hand, I get it and it's great insight and an appropriate reminder. On the other hand, a list like that is an aggregate of tastes and sensibilities, and mine are as valid as anyone else's. 2 hours ago, soulpope said: Re-listening to Mingus always comes as revelation in this respect .... I had a friend (since deceased, died at a 29 from leukemia) who was a bass player. He "liked" jazz, but was a classical guy, at times subbing for the Philly orchestra. I played him Mingus's Atlantic-era "Haitian Fight Song" because to me, that is as expressive and wonderful as bass playing gets, and he found Mingus's work ugly and horrifying. So you never know. I get, in theory, what LaFaro was doing, but it's never really grabbed me (I have all those Evans recordings, of course, because I'm supposed to, but when I want to hear Evans, I generally pull out "Everybody Digs Bill Evans" with Sam Jones and Philly Joe Jones). I guess it's really a matter of musical choices rather than "right" or "wrong". I love the acrobatics of Stanley Clarke on the RTF albums, but that is certainly going to be offfensive to a purist view. Yet I much prefer Miroslav Vitous (and Alphonso Johnson, for that matter) to Jaco with Weather Report. Reggie Workman grabs me much more than Jimmy Garrison, but I don't question that Garrison was the right bassist for Trane, giving the music what it needed. My friend Ruth Naomi Floyd has had Ed Howard, Kevin Bruce Harris, Reggie Washington Charles Fambrough and Tyrone Brown (love his playing) play in her groups, but the bassist that works the best for her music is a relatively lesser-known guy named Matthew Parrish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Friedman Posted August 21, 2018 Report Share Posted August 21, 2018 I have never cared much for bass plyers who approach their instrument like it was a guitar. It is that big bottom sound that I love the most about the bass. Many years ago I spent an evening listening to Bill Evans with Eddie Gomez and Marty Morrell. Bill played very well, but Gomez bugged me quite a bit. He took long solos on every tune and demonstrated his technical skill by playing mainly in the high register. After the first or second tune I found his solos simply boring. In later years I have heard some much more interesting playing from Gomez with a greater use of the lower register and less emphasis on pyrotechnical displays. I loved the playing of the late George Tucker, Andy Simpkins, Doug Watkins, and Sam Jones. Other bass players now on the scene that I very much like are George Mraz, Buster Williams and David Williams to name just a few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted August 22, 2018 Report Share Posted August 22, 2018 On 09.08.2018 at 2:18 PM, JSngry said: so many bass players lowered their action to gain speed at the expense of a good/fat sound, at least some of this was in reaction to Scott LaFaro's processes. I've ehard differing accounts of how much LaFaro's facility was due to a lowered action and how much was just plain old hard work (and re-evaluating him a few years ago, his tone was bigger than I remembered it being), so I can't really hold him responsible. But then as now, I point to Mingus as the still-definitive example of how a bassist can "do it all" - have/keep great time, have a big fat sound in all registers & in all tempos, and play interactively with the front line. Mingus, FTW as far as OG All That. It had started to become a fashion among bass players. On older records (Dexter Gordon at the Montmatre 1964, various live albums from the label Steeplechase) Nils-Henning was so young but really ready. Then he didn´t have the sound that much amplified. IMHO the only downer was, he played to many soloes. You don´t need a bass solo on each number. About Mingus: Yes, he really had it all and nothing is more exiting than listening to a bass solo when Mingus plays it. Well, in the 70´s Mingus also used a pick-up bass amplifier, but the difference is he never lowered the action to gain speed. Even when due to ill health he had to fill the bass chair with Eddy Gomez and/or Jiri Mraz, he complained about this lowering the action. He said "they don´t have chops to play the bass" and pointed out that he had to cut through the band when their was no amplifiers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulpope Posted August 22, 2018 Report Share Posted August 22, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Peter Friedman said: I have never cared much for bass plyers who approach their instrument like it was a guitar. It is that big bottom sound that I love the most about the bass. Many years ago I spent an evening listening to Bill Evans with Eddie Gomez and Marty Morrell. Bill played very well, but Gomez bugged me quite a bit. He took long solos on every tune and demonstrated his technical skill by playing mainly in the high register. After the first or second tune I found his solos simply boring. In later years I have heard some much more interesting playing from Gomez with a greater use of the lower register and less emphasis on pyrotechnical displays. I loved the playing of the late George Tucker, Andy Simpkins, Doug Watkins, and Sam Jones. Other bass players now on the scene that I very much like are George Mraz, Buster Williams and David Williams to name just a few. Agree on Eddie Gomez sometimes borderline between stunning and overdoing matters .... Regarding the acoustic bass "guitar" approach, really love it if used as part of a solo/bassline .... masterfully exercised by Reggie Workman, Ahmed Abdul-Malik, Jimmy Garrison, Francois Jenny-Clark, Reggie Johnson, Jean-Jacques Avenel ... if used as main technique it becomes truly boring (best example Alex Blake from the late 80`s onwards, saw him several time with the Randy Weston Trio and each of his solos was structured/sounded the same) .... Edited August 22, 2018 by soulpope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulpope Posted August 22, 2018 Report Share Posted August 22, 2018 9 hours ago, Peter Friedman said: Other bass players now on the scene that I very much like are George Mraz, Buster Williams and David Williams to name just a few. 2 hours ago, Gheorghe said: .... He (Mingus) said "they don´t have chops to play the bass" .... I don`t buy (more or less) any new "non vintage" releases nowadays and can`t comment on today´s bass player capabilities, but this bass intro/solo (first time heard "anonymously" via radio) really grabbed me : courtesy Reuben Rogers .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Friedman Posted August 22, 2018 Report Share Posted August 22, 2018 15 hours ago, Gheorghe said: It had started to become a fashion among bass players. On older records (Dexter Gordon at the Montmatre 1964, various live albums from the label Steeplechase) Nils-Henning was so young but really ready. Then he didn´t have the sound that much amplified. IMHO the only downer was, he played to many soloes. You don´t need a bass solo on each number. About Mingus: Yes, he really had it all and nothing is more exiting than listening to a bass solo when Mingus plays it. Well, in the 70´s Mingus also used a pick-up bass amplifier, but the difference is he never lowered the action to gain speed. Even when due to ill health he had to fill the bass chair with Eddy Gomez and/or Jiri Mraz, he complained about this lowering the action. He said "they don´t have chops to play the bass" and pointed out that he had to cut through the band when their was no amplifiers. Mingus said many things that were simply bullshit. He was a great player, but beyond that ....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 Anyway Dexter seemed to like Nils-Henning´s playing very much since he used him almost exclusively during the time he had settled in Europe. About that Tokyo Material: It seems it has very similar stuff like "Swiss Nights Vol 1 - 3" . But the album I like most from that period is "Bitin´the Apple" , especially for Dexter´s relaxed playing and that superb rhythm section Barry Harris, Sam Jones, Al Foster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulpope Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 9 hours ago, Peter Friedman said: Mingus said many things that were simply bullshit. He was a great player, but beyond that ....? Quote He said "they don´t have chops to play the bass" and pointed out that he had to cut through the band when their was no amplifiers. Unquote Obviously Mingus whad the personality documented in-depth, but this statement - even if exaggerating - is worth some afterthoughts .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 3 hours ago, soulpope said: Quote He said "they don´t have chops to play the bass" and pointed out that he had to cut through the band when their was no amplifiers. Unquote Obviously Mingus whad the personality documented in-depth, but this statement - even if exaggerating - is worth some afterthoughts .... Though this is not a Mingus thread and not necessarly a bass sound/technique related thread, just let me say that this appears in Mingus´widows book "Tonight at Noon". It´s reported he said that to Paul Jeffrey when they listened to the tapes from the "Me Myself an Eye" /"Somethin´like a Bird" - session. Imagine how a bitter experience it must have been for Mingus not to be able to play the bass himself anymore, so one might really understand his frustration. And who knows, it may have been that remark that influenced virtuoso bass player Gomez to cut out some of that high register noodlin and goin back to more substantial stuff. He´s a great bass player, it was only those kind of high register bass solos with lowered action to play faster, that got on my nerves sometimes..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulpope Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 12 minutes ago, Gheorghe said: Though this is not a Mingus thread and not necessarly a bass sound/technique related thread, just let me say that this appears in Mingus´widows book "Tonight at Noon". It´s reported he said that to Paul Jeffrey when they listened to the tapes from the "Me Myself an Eye" /"Somethin´like a Bird" - session. Imagine how a bitter experience it must have been for Mingus not to be able to play the bass himself anymore, so one might really understand his frustration. And who knows, it may have been that remark that influenced virtuoso bass player Gomez to cut out some of that high register noodlin and goin back to more substantial stuff. He´s a great bass player, it was only those kind of high register bass solos with lowered action to play faster, that got on my nerves sometimes..... So let`s make it a bass thread for now .... if being handicaped healthwise frustration is a big factor, no question about it .... but the recorded Mingus legacy verifies, that he didn`t romaticise the past but really had "the chops" for the vast part of his active career ..... Regarding Eddie Gomez, his "high register action" was/is not impressive for me either .... btw really like his playing on Steps "Smokin`In The Pit", a live recording in Tokyo frm December 1980 .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 ok, let´s make it a Dexter Gordon´s bassists - thread too (wow, right now I "discovered" that "secret" to use smilies .... ) Did you hear the occasions where Dexter had to play with an electric bass ? (Blues á la Suisse 1973 with Hampton Hawes on fender piano, Bob Cranshaw on fender bass and bop veteral Kenny Clarke, and again with the same rhythm section on a jam with Gene Ammons/Nat Adderly from the same date ), and later in 1977 in Montreux . I know that many acoustic purists hate electric bass, but I noticed that the more precise sound from electric bass made Dexter to play less "laid back" then he usually does. His really busy solo on "Fried Bananas" from Montreux Summit 1977 IMHO is one of the best things Dexter played..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulpope Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, Gheorghe said: ok, let´s make it a Dexter Gordon´s bassists - thread too (wow, right now I "discovered" that "secret" to use smilies .... ) Did you hear the occasions where Dexter had to play with an electric bass ? (Blues á la Suisse 1973 with Hampton Hawes on fender piano, Bob Cranshaw on fender bass and bop veteral Kenny Clarke, and again with the same rhythm section on a jam with Gene Ammons/Nat Adderly from the same date ), and later in 1977 in Montreux . I know that many acoustic purists hate electric bass, but I noticed that the more precise sound from electric bass made Dexter to play less "laid back" then he usually does. His really busy solo on "Fried Bananas" from Montreux Summit 1977 IMHO is one of the best things Dexter played..... Have to confess that electric bass (in jazz) is frequently disappointing me .... don`t think being a purist, but it is amatter of sound .... can`t say too much about Dexter in the recordings you`ve mentioned, but believe he cut great stuff in the late 60`s/early 70`s with "acoustic guys" like Buster William, Stanley Clarke, Jacky Samson or Martin Rivera .... P.S Congrats on the smilies !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Friedman Posted August 24, 2018 Report Share Posted August 24, 2018 When Dexter used Hawes on Electric piano as well as Cranshaw on electric bass it was a double negative for me.I am a big fan of Hampton Hawes, but on the 2 or 3 or 4 albums when I have heard him play an electric piano I found it unappealing. That is one of my least favorite albums by Dexter. I at least partially attribute my attirude about electric piano and bass to my “advanced” age. I developed my interest in jazz when those instruments did not exist, or if they existed were rarely if ever used by jazz musicians. Though I will admit, that I have heard large improvements over the years in electric or digital keyboard instruments. But still much much prefer to hear acoustic piano and bass. I have been fortunate to hear George Mraz live a number of times. His support for the soloist, as well as his highly interesting solos, along with the sound he gets from his bass have made him one of my 3 or 4 favorite bass players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Bresnahan Posted September 19, 2018 Report Share Posted September 19, 2018 I finally picked up the CD version of this last night and I hope to give it a spin later. I was going to get the LP version but it was double the price, dropped the two bonus tracks and I can find no information about whether or not purchasing the LP gives access to a digital download of the material - so CD it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougcrates Posted October 10, 2018 Report Share Posted October 10, 2018 https://www.amazon.com/Espace-Cardin-1977-Dexter-Gordon/dp/B07FYNPWW6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted October 10, 2018 Report Share Posted October 10, 2018 Funny I just received a copy of the recording (not the release). Haven't really listened yet but I was very disappointed to hear Dex playing A La Modal on soprano. Your mileage may vary on that but I'd be much happier with Dex only on tenor all the way thru. I also got about 21 minutes of solo Haig before Dex joins him but I don't think Round Midnight made it on to my 'soundboard' recording. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted October 10, 2018 Report Share Posted October 10, 2018 Hm, seems if they left off the bonus track (they could hsve added one more to the first Dexter disc, after all, ix it's thag good), that Haig portion would have fit in .... too bad! Either, good news ... has me wonder if Elemental is a 2-musician-reissue-label though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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