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Trane Talk


Dave James

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While listening to "Both Directions At Once" today, I found myself, once again, wishing that Trane had never picked up the soprano saxophone.  There's something that just doesn't square with me when he turns to that horn.  His sound on tenor is so meaty, robust and engaging that the soprano seems to strip away a lot of the vigor and the energy from his playing.  Is it just me or do others feel the same way?    

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Hmmmm...

I have to disagree. He has such a fluidity and flexibility on that horn. The tenor allowed him to honk, shronk, and scream. But the soprano sounded more like a stream of consciousness. 

It would almost be like saying you wished Eric Dolphy never picked up a bass clarinet. Was it his best instrument? That’s debatable, but goddamn I’m glad he tookit up. It simply gave him a whole new voice to express himself. 

And, seriously. No soprano, no Afro Blue.  Sorry, but I can’t get behind that! 

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1 hour ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Back in the day when I went to hear Coltrane in person (half a dozen times), I was usually bummed when he picked up the soprano. Thank goodness he did to issue in a generation (beyond Lacy and Bechet) of soprano players. 

I did prefer him on tenor.

I did too. Only time I enjoyed him on soprano was when he came to the Sutherland Lounge before the release of "My Favorite Things" (this was the quartet with Steve Kuhn, Steve Davis, and Pete LaRoca). I enjoyed it because of the surprise factor (both the instrument and the tune) and because the Ellington band was staying at the Sutherland Hotel at the time, and between sets Trane and Johnny Hodges were talking about the soprano at the bar, passing it back and forth.

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I agree. The sound is nasal and quite ugly, and range of expression us much narrower than with tenor. "My Favorite Things" album is probably my least favorite thing Coltrane recorded. The solos are sort of ornamental and very repetitive (and Tyner's solo on the title track is not much to talk about either), and I remember on "Every Time We Say Goodbye" the horn sounded rather out of tune. This is a tough horn to make sound good, and to my ears it did not work out for Coltrane. 

There were and are more interesting soprano saxophone players around.     

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31 minutes ago, Д.Д. said:

I agree. The sound is nasal and quite ugly, and range of expression us much narrower than with tenor. "My Favorite Things" album is probably my least favorite thing Coltrane recorded. The solos are sort of ornamental and very repetitive (and Tyner's solo on the title track is not much to talk about either), and I remember on "Every Time We Say Goodbye" the horn sounded rather out of tune. This is a tough horn to make sound good, and to my ears it did not work out for Coltrane. 

There were and are more interesting soprano saxophone players around.     

So no Softly As In A Morning Sunrise, India, Your Lady, Spiritual, Vilia, Afro Blue, The Promise, and Living Space? 

Those themselves are a greatest hits compilation. 

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A couple of first responders have suggested that If Trane hadn't taken up the soprano, we wouldn't have songs like "My Favorite Things", "Afro Blue" and others.  Perhaps, but isn't it just as likely that he would have still played them but on tenor?  Don't know about you, but I'd love to have heard Trane do MFT on his main ax.   

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44 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Hell, he played alto on a Gene Ammond date!

Is the future so… empty  qthat we have to devote our imaginative energies to creating an alternative history built on speculative non-events?

Perhaps Wynton was a prophet after all!

It’s not even alternative or speculative. It’s more like retroactive wish casting. 

“God, if only Pops had never pulled the trumpet away from his mouth and started singing...” 

Now, I’m not a fan of fusion. But you’ll never hear me say, “If only Miles had never plugged shit in.” 

These things happened, and are historically significant. 

But, OK. Ornette and the trumpet thing...

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1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Hell, he played alto on a Gene Ammond date!

Is the future so… empty  qthat we have to devote our imaginative energies to creating an alternative history built on speculative non-events?

Perhaps Wynton was a prophet after all!

Woulda, coulda, shoulda is a cottage industry.  I don't see it as being indicative of an empty future.  Even if it's a meaningless exercise, it's still fun to speculate.  

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14 minutes ago, Dave James said:

Woulda, coulda, shoulda is a cottage industry.  I don't see it as being indicative of an empty future.  Even if it's a meaningless exercise, it's still fun to speculate.  

I diagree. 

How would a session with Eric Dolphy and Thelonious Monk have turned out is fun to speculate. 

You’re wanting to actually subtract from one of the greatest Jazz catalogs in history. That doesn’t strike me as fun. 

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Much of what I like best about Trane (on tenor), comes through in some of his soprano playing - but I do wish he'd played soprano a bit less.

But I really shouldn't talk, because -- horror of horrors -- in all my 30 years of jazz listening (since I was 20), I've never gotten bitten super hard by Coltrane (tenor or soprano).  Nothing but the deepest of deep respect (and abstract appreciation) for all he did, but I've never truly been smitten with Trane.

FWIW, my opinion of soprano in general is similar, including Wayne Shorter. It's just not an instrument that I like as much after about 15-20 minutes.

And similarly, pretty much any clarinet (jazz, or otherwise) would be better voiced on bass clarinet, or the far too less well-known alto(!) clarinet - imho.

BTW, Nathan Davis on soprano is a voice that I've found surprisingly refreshing, not necessarily for what he said with it, but HOW he said it. But I'm sure I'd tire of it too, if he'd played it a lot more.

Edited by Rooster_Ties
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I'm in line with the modal (haha) opinion here - prefer the tenor to soprano (for Trane, Wayne, and more generally), but not so lopsidedly that the existing recorded output seems out of whack to me.  I'm glad we have the soprano recordings we do.

I do think it's interesting that he abandoned the horn in the studio after "Living Space".  (Which is one of my fave Trane-on-soprano tunes - and not a waltz!)  Interesting to ponder whether, had he survived, he would have re-evaluated that decision.

(Also, tangential, but Wayne's soprano solo on McCoy Tyner's "Message from the Nile" is my fave soprano solo by anyone.)

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3 hours ago, Scott Dolan said:

I diagree. 

How would a session with Eric Dolphy and Thelonious Monk have turned out is fun to speculate. 

You’re wanting to actually subtract from one of the greatest Jazz catalogs in history. That doesn’t strike me as fun. 

"Fun" was a poor choice of words.  "Fun" (cribbing from an old SNL skit) is wondering what would happen if Julius Caesar had owned a Piper Cub or if Eleanor Roosevelt could fly?  "Interesting" would have been a better way of putting it.  I like Uli's earlier suggestion to A/B the tune "Villa" from "Both Directions".  

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