DownBeat Reader's Poll - Vote For Hank Mobley

[JSngry]

and how long was Si Zentner in there? he was a perennial iirc.

[felser]

I voted for Bobby Hutcherson.  Consider him the greatest ever on vibes, no idea how he can't already be in the HOF.  Also, obviously, I have great agreement with the Billy Harper support.

[BillF]

8 minutes ago, felser said:

I voted for Bobby Hutcherson.  Consider him the greatest ever on vibes

Lionel Hampton?

Milt Jackson?

 

[Scott Dolan]

Not that they weren’t great, but l’d still take Hutch. 

[JSngry]

Walt Dickerson not even on the DB HOF radar, correct?

[Rooster_Ties]

2 hours ago, felser said:

Also, obviously, I have great agreement with the Billy Harper support.

Honestly, I'd love to mount a write-in effort for Billy Harper -- every year, in fact -- until he gets added to the pre-printed ballot under the "tenor" category (so he isn't just a write-in any more).

Honestly, in terms of *current playing* -- I cannot think of a tenor-player I like better.  Gary Thomas is close (for me), but Billy's WAY more active, nationally.

[felser]

28 minutes ago, Rooster_Ties said:

Honestly, I'd love to mount a write-in effort for Billy Harper -- every year, in fact -- until he gets added to the pre-printed ballot under the "tenor" category (so he isn't just a write-in any more).

Honestly, in terms of *current playing* -- I cannot think of a tenor-player I like better.  Gary Thomas is close (for me), but Billy's WAY more active, nationally.

I like Eric Alexander a whole lot, but he and Harper are apples and oranges (Dexter Gordon vs. Coltrane).  I'm glad to join the Billy Harper write-in campaign, wish it actually had a chance to succeed.

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Walt Dickerson not even on the DB HOF radar, correct?

I'm sure he's not, and he was a monster.   

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Last year's vote totals:

 

Hank Mobley came in 9th place, behind Wynton Marsalis, Allan Holdsworth, John McLaughlin, Les Paul, George Benson, Jack DeJohnette, Toots Thielmans & Phil Woods. Not counting the recently departed, who usually get a lot of votes the year they die & the odd inclusion of DeJohnette, am I the only one who sees a trend here? Why the hell are guitarists so overly represented in this poll? My guess is that there is a concerted effort of these guitarists' fans to get them in there.

So why is what I'm doing any worse?

[JSngry]

Dude, it's a reader's poll, a marketing ploy. Guitarists tend to read "music magazines" more than most people, seconded by drummers and "keyboardists".

Respectfully - seriously - stop worrying about this like it's a real "honor". It's really not, not in any real-worls dense. And if it does matter that much to you, start lobbying the crtics and/or the veteran's council or whoever they are.

Look what "jazz fans" can do!

I mean, I love me some Ernie Caceres, really I do, but what kind of a electorate was it that put all those other then-faddishly-fashionable players into one place and yet found space for Ernie Caceres? Did he have an underground fan network of that size, I mean, really?

[Brad]

Look out for Ernie’s fan club knocking at your door 

By the way, it turns out there is a Jazz Hall of Fame. Actually, if you do a search some states have a jazz hall of fame. 

The Jazz Hall of Fame is called the Jazz at Lincoln Center Ertegun Jazz Hall of Fame.  See Jazz Hall of Fame

It has some 50 plus members so far  

 

[Justin V]

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

Dude, it's a reader's poll, a marketing ploy. Guitarists tend to read "music magazines" more than most people, seconded by drummers and "keyboardists".

Respectfully - seriously - stop worrying about this like it's a real "honor". It's really not, not in any real-worls dense. And if it does matter that much to you, start lobbying the crtics and/or the veteran's council or whoever they are.

Look what "jazz fans" can do!

I mean, I love me some Ernie Caceres, really I do, but what kind of a electorate was it that put all those other then-faddishly-fashionable players into one place and yet found space for Ernie Caceres? Did he have an underground fan network of that size, I mean, really?

With that lineup being so heavy on beboppers, it is kind of surprising that Cecil Payne wasn't on bari.

[Simon Weil]

5 hours ago, Kevin Bresnahan said:

 

Hank Mobley came in 9th place, behind Wynton Marsalis, Allan Holdsworth, John McLaughlin, Les Paul, George Benson, Jack DeJohnette, Toots Thielmans & Phil Woods. Not counting the recently departed, who usually get a lot of votes the year they die & the odd inclusion of DeJohnette, am I the only one who sees a trend here? Why the hell are guitarists so overly represented in this poll? My guess is that there is a concerted effort of these guitarists' fans to get them in there.

The trend I see is of a poll stuck in a groove - or maybe a time-warp. Let's vote again like we did last year...and the year before.....and the decade before.

[JSngry]

2 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

Honestly, I'd love to mount a write-in effort for Billy Harper -- every year, in fact -- until he gets added to the pre-printed ballot under the "tenor" category (so he isn't just a write-in any more).

Honestly, in terms of *current playing* -- I cannot think of a tenor-player I like better.  Gary Thomas is close (for me), but Billy's WAY more active, nationally.

You're probably not old enough to remember the days when Max and his bands were "blacklisted" from mainstream american labels, jazz or otherwise (whether or not they were actually blacklisted or just chose not to play that kind of ball or some combination, I don't know). For a looooooong time, Capra Black was Billy's only American release and Strata-East was not exactly a "major label" in terms of marketing and general visibility. And then after that...if you lived in a city that had good record shops, you could get the Denon things (two of them anyway), but really...

Billy began his career as a "cult favorite" and remains one to this day. I guarandamntee you that the ratio of people who know, say, Michael Brecker to people who know Billy Harper is, at best, 500-to-one. Probably a helluva lot bigger, maybe exponentially bigger. That's the landscape of these polls, most of the voting is not particularly informed by a broad perspective of the music as a whole, it's just people who know what they know and like it enough to vote in these things.

For people who live most of their life not heavily in "the underground", I don't know if there's a full appreciation of just how truly underground "jazz" is, especially the type that doesn't play full-ball with "the mainstream" of the business.

4 hours ago, Brad said:

Look out for Ernie’s fan club knocking at your door 

If they bring records, they can come right on in!

1 hour ago, Justin V said:

With that lineup being so heavy on beboppers, it is kind of surprising that Cecil Payne wasn't on bari.

Not sure how much Cecil had broken out by then, but Serge Chaloff, for sure.

[Chuck Nessa]

14 minutes ago, JSngry said:

You're probably not old enough to remember the days when Max and his bands were "blacklisted" from mainstream american labels, jazz or otherwise (whether or not they were actually blacklisted or just chose not to play that kind of ball or some combination, I don't know).

 

Which years were those?

I might be old enough.

[felser]

44 minutes ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Which years were those?

I might be old enough.

70's following his Atlantic contract - lots of us were old enough.  I remember mysterious releases like "The Loadstar".

[GA Russell]

Is that Fats Navarro between Dizzy and Shelly Manne in the Metronome "photo?"  I can't read the card.

[Scott Dolan]

15 hours ago, Kevin Bresnahan said:

Last year's vote totals:

 

Hank Mobley came in 9th place, behind Wynton Marsalis, Allan Holdsworth, John McLaughlin, Les Paul, George Benson, Jack DeJohnette, Toots Thielmans & Phil Woods. Not counting the recently departed, who usually get a lot of votes the year they die & the odd inclusion of DeJohnette, am I the only one who sees a trend here? Why the hell are guitarists so overly represented in this poll? My guess is that there is a concerted effort of these guitarists' fans to get them in there.

So why is what I'm doing any worse?

Snarky Puppy??!! 

Good lord...

I really enjoy their music, but Jazz band of the year? Um...no. 

This may just shift me over to Jim's side of the fence. 

[JSngry]

10 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Which years were those?

I might be old enough.

It was after Atlantic asked Max to do something with popular appeal or some such, and his response was to give them Lift Every Voice and Sing. That was it for Max and American labels for a good stretch. I've heard the term "blacklisted" and once believed it at face value, but knowing now what I didn't know then, it could just as well have been a case of Max being "difficult" or otherwise aggressively pursing self-determination. At this point, don't know, don't care.

There were plenty of Max records, of course, and plenty of Billy Harper records with and without Max, but most people/the general jazz public here didn't have access to them or awareness of them. They weren't reviewed in down beat, there was no advertising of them in the jazz press (and whatever loop that creates, go figure), etc. What I do know is that sooo many people were into Brecker as a tenor voice of the times, with the "hipper" people gravitation towards the Liebman/Grossman world, that Billy Harper was totally under the radar. Still is, really, by choice or otherwise.

 

9 hours ago, GA Russell said:

Is that Fats Navarro between Dizzy and Shelly Manne in the Metronome "photo?"  I can't read the card.

it is.

[Rooster_Ties]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

What I do know is that sooo many people were into Brecker as a tenor voice of the times, with the "hipper" people gravitation towards the Liebman/Grossman world, that Billy Harper was totally under the radar. Still is, really, by choice or otherwise.

Half a crime, if you ask me -- that Billy Harper is still that far under the radar.  Honestly, I think he's one of the 20 best tenor players EVER (whole history of jazz), if you ask me.  You could argue where 'where' in the ranking (off the top of my head, he'd be around #10 for me, give or take)...  ...but from the sounds of things, he'd barely crack the top 100 (if that), if you polled everyone from the last 50 years who ever owned more than 200 jazz albums.

For me, Billy's probably been THE voice on tenor for the last 20 years.  Like, nobody tells a story, or can spin a solo - like he does.  I sort of half mean "voice" literally -- his approach does seem almost 'vocal' to me.

If anybody deserves to get 'rediscovered' like Joe Henderson did in 1991, it'd be Billy Harper now.  Hell, Joe was 54 back in '91.  Jesus, Billy is 75(!) - I just saw when I looked it up.  (I thought more like 70.)  So Billy's 15-20 years OVERDUE for rediscovery.

I know, I know -- the world ain't like it was in 1991 - and hasn't been for a good 10-15 years (at least).

At the very least, Billy needs some sort of "fan club" or something.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Rooster_Ties

[JSngry]

Oh, there is a Billy Harper Fan Club: http://billyharper.com/harperfanclub2.html

you decide for yourself how that all is.

As far as rankings, I'd really rather not enter that, it's a trap. But I can say that Billy has maintained a totally unique voice as player, composer, arranger, and on occasion, voice(!)for as long as he's been available for the public eye. Whatever his influences are, he's absorbed them, not mimicked them, and as a composer...the man is as much of a unique quantity as is anybody, ever.

I don't know if he's really into the commoditization of his music through outside business structures, it appears that he's not, but I don't know. No matter, let those who have ears to hear, hear. They'll find him if they need him, that's just how it works.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

On 7/24/2018 at 4:47 PM, JSngry said:

Dude, it's a reader's poll, a marketing ploy. Guitarists tend to read "music magazines" more than most people, seconded by drummers and "keyboardists".

Respectfully - seriously - stop worrying about this like it's a real "honor". It's really not, not in any real-worls dense. And if it does matter that much to you, start lobbying the crtics and/or the veteran's council or whoever they are.

Look what "jazz fans" can do!

I mean, I love me some Ernie Caceres, really I do, but what kind of a electorate was it that put all those other then-faddishly-fashionable players into one place and yet found space for Ernie Caceres? Did he have an underground fan network of that size, I mean, really?

Jim - You are a moderator. You should not be shitting on my thread. You should be preventing this. That's what moderators do.

Could you at least stop being a turd in the punch bowl?

CLEARLY, you don't believe in DownBeat or their Hall Of Fame. We get it. We don't need our noses rubbed in it over & over.

[JSngry]

There's a punch bowl?

[GA Russell]

14 hours ago, JSngry said:

it is.

Thanks Jim!

[Big Beat Steve]

On 24.7.2018 at 10:47 PM, JSngry said:

Dude, it's a reader's poll, a marketing ploy. Guitarists tend to read "music magazines" more than most people, seconded by drummers and "keyboardists".

Respectfully - seriously - stop worrying about this like it's a real "honor". It's really not, not in any real-worls dense. And if it does matter that much to you, start lobbying the crtics and/or the veteran's council or whoever they are.

Look what "jazz fans" can do!

I mean, I love me some Ernie Caceres, really I do, but what kind of a electorate was it that put all those other then-faddishly-fashionable players into one place and yet found space for Ernie Caceres? Did he have an underground fan network of that size, I mean, really?

So read here if you will:

https://news.allaboutjazz.com/solving-the-metronome-riddle.php

@Justin V: See the above link too. The man who made the #1 slot is given there. No Cecil Payne in sight, though.

 

As for what "jazz fans" can do, overall this must have leveled out pretty much over the years and each one got his turn eventually, but odd results reflecting "popular" tastes that did not seem to match the tastes of those with more "sophisticated" tastes occurred rather often through the decades. Whenever I read a poll in old jazz magazines it somehow seemed to be second nature to the scribes to comment on this or that "odd" choice and try to find explanations (or excuses). But no doubt you are aware of the 1947 Esquire promotional hubbub about the "best" jazzmen that certainly was NOT fans' (or critics') polls. You wouldn't want to have it that way either, would you?

Edited July 26, 2018 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

Ok, Serge Challoff actually won, that makes sense. Funny, though, that Bob Gioga was in there. Solidass section player, Kenton's Carney I like to call him, but not a soloist. But the Kenton band was crazymad popular then, so I get that his presence reflects that type of fan loyalty.

Thanks for that link.