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DownBeat Reader's Poll - Vote For Hank Mobley

170 posts in this topic

45 minutes ago, Dmitry said:

http://downbeat.com/archives/detail/downbeat-hall-of-fame

DownBeat Hall of Fame

A–B

Muhal Richard Abrams (C 2010)
Cannonball Adderley (R 1975)
Gene Ammons (V 2012)
Louis Armstrong (R 1952)
Albert Ayler (C 1983)
Chet Baker (C 1989)
Count Basie (R 1958)
Sidney Bechet (C 1968)
Bix Beiderbecke (C 1962)
Tony Bennett (R 2015)
Ed Blackwell (C 1993)
Eubie Blake (V 2017)
Art Blakey (R 1981)
Jimmy Blanton (V 2008)
Lester Bowie (C 2000)
Michael Brecker (R 2007)
Clifford Brown (C 1972)
Ray Brown (R 2003)
Dave Brubeck (R 1994)

C–D

Hoagy Carmichael (V 2016) 
Harry Carney (V 2008)
Benny Carter (C 1977)
Betty Carter (C 1999)
John Carter (C 1991)
Ron Carter (R 2012)
Paul Chambers (V 2011)
Don Cherry (C 2017) 
Charlie Christian (C 1966)
Kenny Clarke (C 1988)
Nat “King” Cole (R 1997)
Ornette Coleman (R 1969)
John Coltrane (R 1965)
Chick Corea (R 2010)
Bing Crosby (V 2014)
Tadd Dameron (V 2009)
Miles Davis (R 1962)
Paul Desmond (R 1977)
Baby Dodds (V 2010)
Johnny Dodds (C 1987)
Eric Dolphy (R 1964)

E–G

Billy Eckstine (V 2010)
Roy Eldridge (C 1971)
Duke Ellington (R 1956)
Bill Evans (C 1981)
Gil Evans (C 1986)
Maynard Ferguson (R 1992)
Ella Fitzgerald (R 1979)
Erroll Garner (V 2008)
George Gershwin (V 2017)
Stan Getz (R 1986)
Dizzy Gillespie (R 1960)
Benny Goodman (R 1957)
Dexter Gordon (R 1980)
Stéphane Grappelli (R 1983)

H–J

Charlie Haden (C 2013)
Jim Hall (C 2014)
Lionel Hampton (R 1987)
Herbie Hancock (R 2005)
Coleman Hawkins (C 1961)
Roy Haynes (C 2004)
Julius Hemphill (C 1995)
Fletcher Henderson (C 1973)
Joe Henderson (R 2001)
Jimi Hendrix (R 1970)
Woody Herman (R 1976)
Andrew Hill (C 2007)
Earl Hines (C 1965)
Milt Hinton (C 2001)
Johnny Hodges (C 1970)
Billie Holiday (R 1961)
Freddie Hubbard (R 2009)
Milt Jackson (R 1999)
Ahmad Jamal (R 2011) 
Keith Jarrett (R 2008)
Antonio Carlos Jobim (R 2002)
James P. Johnson (C 1992)
J.J. Johnson (R 1995)
Robert Johnson (V 2013)
Elvin Jones (C 1998)
Hank Jones (C 2009)
Jo Jones (V 2008)
Philly Joe Jones (V 2010)
Thad Jones (C 1987)

K–M

Stan Kenton (R 1954)
B.B. King (R 2014)
Rahsaan Roland Kirk (C 1978)
Lee Konitz (C 2015)
Gene Krupa (R 1972)
Steve Lacy (C 2005)
John Lewis (C 2002)
Abbey Lincoln (C 2011)
Jimmie Lunceford (V 2008)
Wynton Marsalis (R 2017) 
Jackie McLean (C 2006)
Pat Metheny (R 2013)
Glenn Miller (R 1953)
Charles Mingus (R 1971)
Thelonious Monk (R 1963)
Wes Montgomery (R 1968)
Lee Morgan (R 1991)
Jelly Roll Morton (C 1963)
Paul Motian (C 2012)
Gerry Mulligan (R 1993)Don Redman

N–P

Fats Navarro (C 1982)
Herbie Nichols (V 2017) 
Joe “King” Oliver (C 1976)
Charlie Parker (R 1955)
Jaco Pastorius (R 1988)
Art Pepper (R 1982)
Oscar Peterson (R 1984)
Oscar Pettiford (V 2009)
Bud Powell (R 1966)

Q–S

Sun Ra (C 1984)
Django Reinhardt (C 1971)
Buddy Rich (R 1974)
Max Roach (C 1980)
Red Rodney (R 1990)
Sonny Rollins (R 1973)
Pee Wee Russell (C 1969)
Artie Shaw (C 1996)
Woody Shaw (R 1989)
Wayne Shorter (C 2003)
Horace Silver (R 1996)
Zoot Sims (C 1985)
Frank Sinatra (R 1998)
Bessie Smith (C 1967)
Jimmy Smith (R 2006)
Sonny Stitt (V 2012)
Billy Strayhorn (R 1967)

T-Z

Art Tatum (C 1964)
Cecil Taylor (C 1975)
Jack Teagarden (C 1969)
Clark Terry (R 2000)
Lennie Tristano (C 1979)
McCoy Tyner (R 2004)
Sarah Vaughan (R 1985)
Joe Venuti (R 1978)
Fats Waller (C 1968)
Dinah Washington (V 2014)
Muddy Waters (V 2015)
Chick Webb (V 2010)
Ben Webster (C 1974)
Randy Weston (C 2016) 
Mary Lou Williams (C 1990)
Tony Williams (C 1997)
Teddy Wilson (C 1987)
Phil Woods (R 2016) 
Lester Young (R 1959)
Frank Zappa (C 1994)
Joe Zawinul (C 2008)

 

Besides Hank, I don't see John Patton or Duke Pearson or Stanley Turrentine or Johnny Griffin or Don Byas or Don Redman or Jimmy Giuffre on that list.

Oh my, what a shame.

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My votes:

HoF: Hank

Artist: Ingrid Laubrock

Group: Mary Halvorson Trio

Big Band: Maria Schneider Orchestra (just cuz I’m madly in love with her)

Jazz Album: Roscoe Mitchel - Bells For The Southside (close call between that and Nate Wooley’s Knknighgh)

Historical Album: Miles Davis & John Coltrane - The Final Tour

Trumpet: Nate Wooley

Trombone: Grachan Moncur III

Soprano Sax: Evan Parker

Alto Sax: Joe McPhee

Tenor Sax: Ingrid Laubrock

Baritone Sax: Mats Gustafsson

Piano: Joey Calderazzo

Bass: Stephan Crump

Drums: Paal Nilssen-Love (seriously?! A write in?! )

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Ok, I voted for the HOF - Warne Marsh. As a "write in".

Not even on the ballot.

Vote was for label of the year - Nessa.  Again a write-in.

Not even on the ballot.

I like the underdogs.

The only thing that was on the ballot than I voted for was Bells For The South Side as album of the year. The rest of it, I'm looking at all these names that are and aren't on there and I'm thinking fuck this shit. It made me feel like a fanboy all over again, not even a fanman.

hqdefault.jpg

 

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In other words you aren’t that familiar with a lot of the newer names and record labels? 

I’m not sure how anyone could be familiar with Mary Halvorson, Ingrid Laubrock, Nate Wooley, Paal Nilssen-Love, Cleen Feed Records, etc. and simply dismiss them with “fuck this shit”. 

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1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Might I suggest that if differing opinions are not what you want to deal with, perhaps pursue your quest in other places than an open, public forum.

But you know, if you gonna talk about how The Down Beat Critics Poll Don't Talk About Straight-Ahead Jazz, then the answer is the same there as it is here - it really doesn't matter.

I agree with Brad that this discussion is a bit bizarre. And it could easily slip into an even more depressing outlook on the relevance and future of this very message board, but I'll resist going into that.

To me, it seems as if the initial request was made in a positive spirit. And it seemed to come out of a passion for Mobley, not a particular interest in Down Beat. So if trying - and maybe even succeeding, how improbable that may seem - to get Mobley into this hall of fame can make some people feel good about honoring the memory of him, there doesn't seem to be any obvious downside to that.

In the light of that, a seemingly negative outburst stating the pointlessness of this exercise may be an example of someone just exercising his freedom of expression (let's for a moment disregard the fact that this is a private website), but it also seems to take away the positive spirit without adding much else.

So if some people think there is a point in doing something, why keep telling them it's pointless? Obviously, that's incorrect since it meant something to those people, which was the main point in the first place.

And forgive me for keeping up the bizarre-ness. ☺ 

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To me, this discussion actually touches on many issues of the past 45 years. I started reading Down Beat in 1975. For about ten years I read it cover to cover, several times, each issue. I went to my University library and read back issues, back into the 1950s, which is where the library's collection stopped.

Voting in the Down Beat Readers Poll was a big deal to me. I remember around 1978 that a jazz loving friend of mine said that it was one of the highlights of his year, and I agreed.

Who was voted into the Down Beat Hall of Fame seemed to matter. Musicians would bring it up in interviews.

At the same time, in the late 1970s and early 1980s, jazz was much more popular than it is now, especially among young people, and there was more of a vibrant jazz community, and many places for jazz artists to play. A musician's credential such as being voted into the Down Beat Hall of Fame would be part of a venue's advertising for its jazz concert. It probably helped some jazz artists get gigs.

As we all know, somewhere along the line, jazz became less popular, especially among the young, performance venues dwindled, gigs dried up, vibrant jazz communities shrunk, and Down Beat magazine and its Hall of Fame seemed to become much less important.

I kept subscribing to Down Beat out of inertia until about five years ago. Now I would not consider buying an issue. Why do so? And who cares about their Hall of Fame? Not me. As Jim has pointed out, it is just an imaginary list kept by a small circulation magazine of questionable quality and credibility.

It is a sad history, as I enter my 60s and look back at it.

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Hey, I voted. So now I can complain. That’s the way we are taught here, if you don’t vote, you can’t complain. For as long as America is America (bad odds, I know), so long may we wave)

Next year, maybe I vote for Duke Pearson. Or if Warne gets the write-in wave my contacts tell me is a sure-bet, then I can free up my vote for Hank.

But, no Don Byas? Tell me that’s an error on my part. It’s not like he’s Vada Pinson or something.

20 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

And it could easily slip into an even more depressing outlook on the relevance and future of this very message board...

All performance art aside (well, almost all), the truth is that I myself learn much more about much more music of much more variety from checking in on the discussions here in one week than I did in my last 10 years of down beat reading. And looking at the odd issue on the newsstand or online, it’s only getting more that way.

So yeah, ok, big picture, yeah, message board format in general, dinosaur in progress. But this one, for me, I can ride that arc all the way down. Information trumps product placement, always

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Continuing with my musings about the Down Beat Hall of Fame, jazz has no real Hall of Fame. It has an imaginary list in a small circulation magazine which has changed ownership, editors, and philosophy many times. .

In contrast, I was surprised by the Country Music Hall of Fame and Museum in Nashville. This is what jazz should have, and does not. If you have never been there, the Country Music Hall of Fame votes in a few new members a year. The inductees are given a brass plaque very much like the plaques for the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame. Those plaques are displayed in a big room near the end of your tour of the museum.

But that is not even the strength of the museum. There are a great many display cases with a lot of printed information and artifacts about the history of the music, in considerable detail. There are some amazing, unexpected artifacts and objects on display. There is a wall of album covers of gold records, which you could look at for a long time. There are intelligently curated special exhibits. When I was there, the special exhibit was about Bob Dylan's Nashville recordings in the 1960s and how they changed country music and Nashville. There is an education center for children. There are extensive library collections of documents which you can request access to.

In short, it is a world class, top museum. I don't even like a lot of country music, and I was very impressed with it.

Where is the equivalent jazz Hall of Fame and museum? Why is there no equivalent jazz Hall of Fame and museum? Oh wait, we have an imaginary list in a small magazine instead.

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35 minutes ago, Scott Dolan said:

In other words you aren’t that familiar with a lot of the newer names and record labels? 

I’m not sure how anyone could be familiar with Mary Halvorson, Ingrid Laubrock, Nate Wooley, Paal Nilssen-Love, Cleen Feed Records, etc. and simply dismiss them with “fuck this shit”. 

No, that’s not what I said. I said “fuck THIS shit” as in these people are either better than this or not worth eve this.

Bring back swimsuit competitions, let’s get that logic restored, then we can lather up the dB polls.

Foamy!

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2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Besides Hank, I don't see John Patton or Duke Pearson or Stanley Turrentine or Johnny Griffin or Don Byas or Don Redman or Jimmy Giuffre on that list.

Oh my, what a shame.

I voted for Jimmy Giuffre. I followed your lead and wrote Nessa on the write-in ballot for label.

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8 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

How the hell could a Veteran's Committee skip over Hank?

Had to get George Gershwin in first, apparently.

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41 minutes ago, Hot Ptah said:

Continuing with my musings about the Down Beat Hall of Fame, jazz has no real Hall of Fame. It has an imaginary list in a small circulation magazine which has changed ownership, editors, and philosophy many times. .

In contrast, I was surprised by the Country Music Hall of Fame and Museum in Nashville. This is what jazz should have, and does not....Where is the equivalent jazz Hall of Fame and museum? Why is there no equivalent jazz Hall of Fame and museum? Oh wait, we have an imaginary list in a small magazine instead.

The phrases "ownership" & "access to capital" enter the answers to that question, at some level, at some time. We can delay taht conversation, but we cannot avoid it.

But don't feel bad. We got JALC, right? Enjoy!

Of course, it's not that simple, but it is a factor. The Country Industry is at least as vile as any other music industry, but they make a point of being seen as "taking care of thier own". Who takes care of jazz' "own", Wynton Masilias? A pretender to the throne of cultural Guardian, that, if it had to exist at all (and the money said that it did) would have been much better (in every sense of the word) by, say, Randy Weston. "They" decided that way, and those "they" are not the "they" of Modern Day Nashville. That is what it is, but make no mistake, that didn't happen by accident, any of it. Roy Acuff knew what he was doing and why he was doing it.

Follow the money. Always.

But ok. let's not talk about that, that's too serious, hey, it's just the Down Beat Hall Of Fame, nothing to get all frowny-faced about, right?

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Besides Nessa Records not even being listed, Not Two Records was also not even listed

the other side of this coin is that many great musicians are listed

I think I voted something like this:

HOF: Fred Anderson 

album: Tim Berne’s Snakeoil: Incidentals (most of my favorites not listed) - but I really liked this recording 

soprano saxophone: Evan Parker

alto saxophone: I think I also picked Joe McPhee - Darius Jones would be a very strong choice as well but the great 78 year old McPhee deserves my vote as he continues to astound on Tenor, Alto & trumpet whenever I see him live or on recent recordings. 

tenor saxophone: Tony Malaby - I don’t think Rodrigo Amado was listed which is as an absurd ignorant ommision as he is simply one of the most stunning of today’s saxophonists

baritone saxophone: Mats Gustafsson 

trombone: Jeb Bishop

trumpet: Peter Evans

piano: Kris Davis - the fact that Agusti Fernandez is missing is pretty damn pathetic 

drums: Hamid Drake 

bass: Barry Guy - no time to write in any more and Guy is still as great as anyone live except probably another guy not listed - John Edwards is NOT listed - they never heard of the best and most powerful double bassist on the planet? He’s only been on the scene in London for 25 years and is the first call bassists for many of the great improvisors/legends like Brotzmann, Parker, McPhee, Moholo-Moholo

violin: Mat Maneri (even though he’s played viola exclusively for the last 12-15 years or so. At least he’s listed

vibraphone: Jason Adasiewicz

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9 hours ago, JSngry said:

Ok, I voted for the HOF - Warne Marsh. As a "write in".

Not even on the ballot.

Vote was for label of the year - Nessa.  Again a write-in.

Not even on the ballot.

I like the underdogs.

The only thing that was on the ballot than I voted for was Bells For The South Side as album of the year. The rest of it, I'm looking at all these names that are and aren't on there and I'm thinking fuck this shit. It made me feel like a fanboy all over again, not even a fanman.

hqdefault.jpg

 

While you were writing in so many, I hope you included Billy Harper, who is not listed in the Tenor Sax category.....

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7 hours ago, Steve Reynolds said:

 

trumpet: Peter Evans

 

Hmm, now you're making me re-think my Wooley vote. 

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5 hours ago, Scott Dolan said:

Hmm, now you're making me re-think my Wooley vote. 

I could have voted for a number of trumpeters / Wooley might be my favorite as well. Have you heard Larry Och’s “Fictive Five”? Among others, Wooley is great on this recording / it’s on Tzadik. My impressions of Wooley live have been overwhelmingly positive. I havn’t seen Evans as often as I’m not as interested in his own projects as I’d like to be. 

Taylor Ho Bynum, Axel Doerner, Herb Robertson, Magnus Broo & Josh Berman all come to mind as major talents on trumpet. Hard to select one.

 

Edited by Steve Reynolds

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Yeah, I think If push came to shove i’d give Evans the slight edge, but both are insanely talented. I also agree that Evans own projects aren’t terribly exciting. Though they are still pretty good. 

I’ll definitely check out that Ochs date. 

Have you heard The Selva yet? That album is an all-timer. 

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6 minutes ago, Scott Dolan said:

Yeah, I think If push came to shove i’d give Evans the slight edge, but both are insanely talented. I also agree that Evans own projects aren’t terribly exciting. Though they are still pretty good. 

I’ll definitely check out that Ochs date. 

Have you heard The Selva yet? That album is an all-timer. 

I’ve added it to my list. I have a great album with that bassist on No Business Records: “The Attic” a trio that also includes the great Portaguese saxophonist mentioned below, the *great* Rodrigo Amado. This record seems to be led by the bassist, Gonçalo Almeida and it builds to some incredible heights by the end of the multiple part suite.

Speaking of Mr. Amado, have you investigated Rodrigo Amado yet? “The Freedom Principle” with Peter Evans added to his core trio is pretty great. Also on No Business

his recent recordings on Not Two (last 5 years) are all great to spectacular. Searching for Adam, The Flame Alphabet & This is Our Language in an alternate musical universe would already be reknowned as all-time classics.

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The Ochs CD is terrific as are all of the Amado CDs.

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25 minutes ago, Steve Reynolds said:

 

Speaking of Mr. Amado, have you investigated Rodrigo Amado yet? “The Freedom Principle” with Peter Evans added to his core trio is pretty great. Also on No Business

 

I'm pretty sure I've heard all of the Lisbon Improvisation Players albums. Liked all of them. Not sure if I've heard him in a smaller setting, though. Will check out The Freedom Principle next. 

Have you gotten around to A Quietness Of Water yet? 

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5 minutes ago, Scott Dolan said:

I'm pretty sure I've heard all of the Lisbon Improvisation Players albums. Liked all of them. Not sure if I've heard him in a smaller setting, though. Will check out The Freedom Principle next. 

Have you gotten around to A Quietness Of Water yet? 

Another one on my list. I jumped on the new 5 CD set from Zlatko Kaucic (also on Not Two) as it is a nice selection of small ensembles (duo with Evan Parker, trio with EP & Agusti Fernandez, Quartet including Lotte Anker Rafal Mazur, etc. he’s a very stronger drummer I’ve recently become familiar with) plus I’ve been debating a few other newish improv releases. Plus I don't buy CD’s or obtain new music to create a back-log. I’ve been revisiting newer releases such as Six Situations (a great trio with McPhee, Damon Smith & Alvin Fielder) or the last Dragonfly Breath CD & the newish small group 2 CD set with Dave Holland, EP, Craig Taborn & Ches Smith. Lots to listen to...

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8 minutes ago, Steve Reynolds said:

Another one on my list. I jumped on the new 5 CD set from Zlatko Kaucic (also on Not Two) as it is a nice selection of small ensembles (duo with Evan Parker, trio with EP & Agusti Fernandez, Quartet including Lotte Anker Rafal Mazur, etc. he’s a very stronger drummer I’ve recently become familiar with) plus I’ve been debating a few other newish improv releases. Plus I don't buy CD’s or obtain new music to create a back-log. I’ve been revisiting newer releases such as Six Situations (a great trio with McPhee, Damon Smith & Alvin Fielder) or the last Dragonfly Breath CD & the newish small group 2 CD set with Dave Holland, EP, Craig Taborn & Ches Smith. Lots to listen to...

Ohhhhhh! That Zlatko set sounds amazing! Did you order it straight from Not Two? 

I still need to pick up Mad Dogs On The Loose, too. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Scott Dolan said:

Ohhhhhh! That Zlatko set sounds amazing! Did you order it straight from Not Two? 

I still need to pick up Mad Dogs On The Loose, too. 

 

I found a good price on e-bay - seemed cheaper than direct and it arrived within 10 days. I’ve only listened to the duo with EP.

the trio CD with Kaucic called Disorder at the Border with a bassist & saxophonist I’d never heard are what got me excited. It’s an Ornette that is honestly the most striking take I’ve heard of Ornette’s music outside of a live performance of a quartet that included Darius Jones & Nate Wooley. The only thing better than that was a take on Skies of America that included that quartet plus a quartet that included Josh Sinton on baritone saxophone. You wouldn’t have believed it unless you were there how draw-dropping it was. In a little room in Brooklyn a couple of years back.

I did feel bad for the other trumpeter who had to stand next to Nate Wooley. No matter how well he played (and he was a fine player), next to Wooley, he sounded like an amateur.

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I'll vote for Hank. Maybe the Critics history group will bring Don Byas in. If not, Byas next year!

 

 

gregmo

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