Wayne Shorter in the New Yorker

[Brad]

The World’s Greatest Living Jazz Composer Celebrates His Eighty-fifth Birthday

By Ethan Iverson

[JSngry]

oh god, here I/we go again...broken recod, same song, different verse...

Super glad that Wayne is getting bigger and better props as time goes on, and I'll reluctantly cede that the cheesy title of this article is "right for the times", but I really do not understand why an article about "The World's Greatest Living Jazz Composer"( and do you love that arc? World's to greatest ULTIMATE! and then work downwards, living, to jazz, to, finally composer, from the peak to the valley, such a tribute!) anyway, I do not get why this is the premise of such an article, nor why it is pursued with such vigor.

His first three records as a leader for Blue Note display especially thrilling powers of transmutation. Shorter’s done a lot since, but, on the occasion of his birthday, many fans—and especially many musicians—will be reaching for “Night Dreamer,” “Juju,” and “Speak No Evil” to celebrate and give thanks...Pressure creates diamonds. In the liner notes to “Night Dreamer,” Shorter says to Nat Hentoff, “I knew that for my first album for Blue Note, I had to create something substantial!” “Night Dreamer” was tracked on April 29th, “Juju” on August 3rd, and “Speak No Evil” on December 24th. It’s intensely personal art, music that could only have been created by Shorter. But one could also say that “Night Dreamer” is in the style of a Blakey album, “Juju” is a Coltrane album, and “Speak No Evil” is a Davis album. These explicit references help explain why this trilogy is so beloved among musicians, who revel in how Shorter puts his own imprint on these major influences....

Yes, they're great albums, and yes those compositions are "beloved" (I found a Hallmark card that said "Dear Wayne, Speak no more juju, just keep dreaming those night dreams, love, a jazz musician", but what's this with seeing them as Blakey/Coltrane/Miles albums. I really had never thought of them like that before, nor does it really occur to me to do so now. It's kinda creepy?

There are so many great Wayne compositions, so much evolution, so much ever-broadening vision, and all this guy can do is pimp three Blue Note records? Shit, I wore those records out back in the day, but I can't remember the last time I've "reached for" them. If anything, I'll go for Super Nova or "Elegant People" or "Beauty and the Beast" or those post-WR Columbia albums that everybody hates except a few musicians, or hell, Adam's Apple, the list goes on, from Vee-Jay to To-Day!

You're paying tribute in a general audience forum to 50+ years of supremely unique artistry and narrowing it down to 3 Blue Note records. I think this cat can do better than that, and I know Wayne deserves better. The guy evolved from a "tune" writer into a real composer but who's ready to go there in the name of "jazz" in They New Yorker? Or too much of anywhere, really.

You know, just fuck people, fuck people in general.

 

 

 

[Guy Berger]

It's comprehensible to me, culturally, why someone would pick 1964 as *the* core year in Wayne Shorter's career, but it kind of requires ignoring what happened in 1965 and after

[Brad]

I knew you’d get a kick out of this article! 

[JSngry]

Right?

I mean, to see all this music with all this...depth and nuance reduced to a...whatever it is.

Hey, I'm listening to Juju again! Because Ethan Iverson wrote about it in The New Yorker! He's, like, the Whitney Balliet of out time!

Who's Whitney Balliet?

Let me play Night Dreamer again and imagine it as Wayne's "Blakey album", let that be the primary lens through which I listen to that record, and see how long it takes me before I tell this motherfucker to go fuck himself and go listen to a Vee-Jay side and then realize what a fucking stupid thing that is to say, much less think.

When I die, bury me away from shit like this, if you can find a place.

 

[Larry Kart]

You know, just fuck people, fuck people in general. 

And specifically, too.

[JSngry]

I'll leave that to the specialists. Me, I'm more of a generalist. Limited attention span and all that.

[Ethan Iverson]

The Culture Desk requires a "general audience" approach, I gotta leave a certain amount out. In this case there were enough fun extras to make a separate DTM post: https://ethaniverson.com/2018/08/25/apex/

It was a real joy to stay in there with the 1964 records a minute...of course I've heard them a lot over the years, but they will always be three of my favorites 

[JSngry]

59 minutes ago, Guy Berger said:

It's comprehensible to me, culturally, why someone would pick 1964 as *the* core year in Wayne Shorter's career, but it kind of requires ignoring what happened in 1965 and after

and not an innocent ignoring either, it's more like a willful ignore-ance.

The man has a body of work that is still not confronted in "jazz education", because it is compositional, not Real Book fare that can be easily (or so they say...) broken down into pedagogical paradigms. I hate that that has happened to the extent that it has, but I hate even more why it has. It's just more dumbing down of the whole life/learning process, more "this is what we understand, this is all we can understand about it, therefore this will be what we will teach, this will be the "is" about that".

I know there are enough exceptions to this, but an article like this reinforces the non-exceptions.

But then again, who am I kidding, nobody's going to give a fuck about Wayne Shorter who doesn't already, and the > 1% who might get on board for whatever this 85th Birthday ride turns out to be will get off at the end like they always do.

Maybe I should start drinking again?

4 minutes ago, Ethan Iverson said:

The Culture Desk requires a "general audience" approach, I gotta leave a certain amount out. In this case there were enough fun extras to make a separate DTM post: https://ethaniverson.com/2018/08/25/apex/

It was a real joy to stay in there with the 1964 records a minute...of course I've heard them a lot over the years, but they will always be three of my favorites 

Hey man, sorry if I come across as harsh. But you know as do I that this whole "general audience" thing is the last step before total state-sanctioned patronage.

I hope to be wrong!

So let's step away from all that for a second and let me ask you this - If Trane had lived, who do you think would have been the more effective collaborator for string accompaniment, Alice, or Elliot Carter? Not who would be the most available, but who would be the best?

Or put another way - whose improvisation concepts would work best with an Elliot Carter composition concept? Worlds are colliding daily!

[Milestones]

No problem with the article here.  It's often well-written, it announces its focus, it sticks to what it sets out to do--with some personal responses by Iverson as a working jazz musician.  Blue Note has an "aura" in general, and while he could have written on other records by Wayne Shorter, the Blue Note discs readily come to mind and there is something close to consensus. 

I have tons of Wayne Shorter in my collection (from every decade), but he is most represented by his work with Miles and, yes, his Blue Note solo records. 

  

[HutchFan]

I don't have a problem with the article either. Sure, I'd do some things differently if I'd written it. (The overuse of the "greatest X, Y, or Z" -- particularly in the context of art -- is a pet peeve of mine too.)  BUT, all things considered, many people (most people?) reading The New Yorker probably barely know who Wayne Shorter is.  If this piece piques readers' curiosity and gets them rolling down the path of exploration, then . . .

No one's going to be harmed by starting with those three records.

IMHO.

[Ethan Iverson]

For me those three LPs are a real apex in the music. I (obviously) also think the conceit about Blakey/Coltrane/Miles is striking and helpful but understand if that doesn't ring true for others.  The headline "greatest jazz composer" was not by me, the title i had was simply "Wayne Shorter in 1964." in fact throughout there was a heavy edit, an edit that I did not proofread before they posted.

I don't mind the edit -- I trust the Culture Desk to bang the piece into shape for their audience -- but not every opinion expressed in the article is exactly what I wrote. This is partly why I added so much detail on DTM.

While it doesn't make perfect sense as a birthday piece to focus on three early albums, the Desk requires a hook, something relevant to the current moment. I couldn't write "Wayne Shorter in 1964" for them without the accompanying, 'Wayne is 85." 

My edit included a mini-review of the forthcoming EMANON (that was cut by the Desk). I like the orchestral music disc quite a bit, especially since Brian Blade is there connecting the dots. If you like ATLANTIS or HIGH LIFE I think you will appreciate EMANON as well.

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Ethan Iverson

[Joe]

To the surprise of exactly no one, this article does not delve into Wayne's most adventurous BN work: THE ALL-SEEING EYE (a record that I still haven't warmed up to entirely), THE SOOTHSAYER (as an arranger) and ETC. Then again/to be fair, anything beyond 1964 is not the article's premise. But while we are on the subject of Wayne, however... ETC. in particular has always felt to me like the record where Wayne most fully "processes" Coltrane's influence and sets himself up for something different. But, to Jim's point: absolutely, some of Wayne's intense, emotionally gripping playing, period, is on SUPERNOVA.  Case in point:

God bless Wayne Shorter, all of him.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Joe

[JSngry]

15 minutes ago, Joe said:

 But while we are on the subject of Wayne, however... ETC. in particular has always felt to me like the record where Wayne most fully "processes" Coltrane's influence and sets himself up for something different.

Put me down in the camp that is not fully convinced that Wayne owed a substantial "stylistic" debt to Coltrane. I get where that comes from, and yeah, I suppose it's there as a "macro influence". But Baraka's "weird as Wayne" thing is front and center from about as close to jump as I know about (and again, listen to some/the Vee-Jay sides before forming too many opinions about the BNs.

This is, for me, about as "wholly Wayne" a theme and variation/expansion/whatever as you'll find on a pre-Super Nova (and side-by-sides of those compositions with the versions that Niles did, is significantly revealing) Shorter BN record. Too bad it was relegated to the vault for 10-15 years.

 

[jlhoots]

I liked the article. 

[Kevin Bresnahan]

8 hours ago, Ethan Iverson said:

The headline "greatest jazz composer" was not by me, the title I had was simply "Wayne Shorter in 1964."

Although the headline is "The World’s Greatest Living Jazz Composer Celebrates His Eighty-fifth Birthday", which doesn't make a lot of sense when you read the article, the browser tab is titled, "A Look Back at 1964, a Pivotal Year in the Career of the Jazz Composer Wayne Shorter", which does make sense when reading your article.

[Rooster_Ties]

FWIW, All Seeing Eye and especially Etc have felt like my quintessential Wayne albums. Though I realize neither one is going to get the attention any/all of his three 1964 dates for BN are nearly always going to garner.

Etc in particular, seems like the/his ultimate synthesis of composition, and incredible playing. I don't reach for those 1964 Wayne dates nearly as often as Etc, and that's been the case for me for well over 15 (maybe even 20) years.

[Ethan Iverson]

I had a short email correspondence with Michael Cuscuna, who oversaw the researches into BN vaults that finally meant that ETCETERA and THE SOOTHSAYER saw the light of day. I had wondered if they released ALL SEEING EYE next because it was more superficially "progressive" but Michael nixed that reason, saying he doubted the choice was that intellectual. He said Alfred Lion just couldn't remember why they shelved ETCETERA or THE SOOTHSAYER.

From this vantage point, it is hard to understand the choices. I agree that there is something especially powerful about ETCETERA. The title track might be by favorite Joe Chambers performance: wow!

In re: Trane and Wayne: In my original edit I gave credit to Warne Marsh. The one thing that the Desk took out that I really wish they had left in was this paragraph: 

For Juju, on top of the churn, Shorter plays a mix of simple and surreal. It’s a Coltrane band, the tunes are not far from Coltrane either, but the saxophonist is still “As weird as Wayne.” Some of that surreal quality might come from the intellectual jazz crew of Lennie Tristano, Lee Konitz, and, especially, Warne Marsh. While it is impossible to imagine Marsh playing the music on Juju, the way Shorter follows the thread of an improvised line to a surprising yet logical place is far closer to Marsh than Coltrane. (Marsh’s favorite saxophonist was Lester Young, a shared reference with Shorter, who wrote “Lester Left Town” for the Jazz Messengers after Young died in 1959.) The earliest Shorter solo on tape, “What Is This Thing Called Love?” from 1956 with pianist John Eaton (unreleased commercially) sounds quite a bit like Warne Marsh. It is included with the DTM Wayne Shorter interview.

The Shorter interview with that incredible early solo is here: https://ethaniverson.com/interview-with-wayne-shorter/

I particularly wanted to get Marsh's name in the article because Marsh's name doesn't appear in the biography FOOTPRINTS. (However, at least in the interview I got him on record about Warne a bit.) 

In re: Vee-Jays, I recently learned of a 70's DB Shorter interview where he talks about being so excited to get Wynton Kelly and the others for his first date as a leader. It was a fun read, especially since Wayne is so darn elliptical about his early jazz days in most interviews. The connections to the community at large are vivid on the Vee-Jays, and maybe at some point I will write up those terrific discs alongside all the Blakey/Shorter albums (which I might love even more).

Edited August 28, 2018 by Ethan Iverson

[JSngry]

Yeah, I got hold of the Miles Plugged Nickel LPs right around the time I was getting heavily into Warne. There was an immediately noticeable similarity. I'm loathe to attribute actual "influences" without explicit proof, but I have no problem saying that those were two guys whose Venn Diagrams were definitely overlapping , for whatever reaon(s).

As for the Desk taking out the reference to Warne, this is one of the reasons I get riled up about articles such as this, inevitable they push a "standard" narrative. Not your fault in this case, Ethan. But still, geez, for decades now, people have noticed a kinship between Warne and at least one pretty significant part of Wayne. And you never see that in "general audience" print, never. and only occasionally in more hardcore jazz print.

Too many people are still sleeping on Warne. I do not exaggerate when I say that, in my opinion, he's one of the real geniuses of this music.

[Steve Reynolds]

Agree about Warne, Jim

 

but these days there are Too Many to Count who are way beyond overlooked and they are now overloaded by the great history of this music.

[JSngry]

"overloaded by the great history"...hell, back in the day, that would motivate people to out from under and move up and out. You think Braxton was struggling with being "overloaded" by history? Do you think Roscoe is being "overloaded" by history? Hell no, he's still making his own history, quite un-overloaded.

Seriously, if all this history is truly overloading, then maybe just say fuck it, I love it, but it's not the boss of me.

Now as for audiences...you either find 'em or you don't. If your survival depends on them, take that into consideration and proceed accordingly. If you can do without them or too much of them, consider that a plus rather than a minus. Document and if you die before you find your audience, leave your legacy with somebody who can and/or will.

[Steve Reynolds]

Many have broken out but the audiences haven't kept up. Hard for the less serious listener as when it gets abstract or simply different to those connections to what most hear as “Jazz”, it  loses most listener and since there is so much great historical music to be heard, that remains the focus for the vast majority of jazz listeners.

or something that has close connections to that historical music.

Braxton left a whole bunch of listeners behind as well - IF he built some up with the “Jazz” quartet or quartet or even the trio’s of the 70’s, he left much of that behind with the great quartet of the 80’s & 90’s with boundary pushers Dresser, Crispell & especially Gerry Hemingway. Then he mostly left me behind with Ghost Trance and everything else. But I’m very interested in many of the musicians he mentored like Mary Halvorson & Taylor Ho Bynum. Two great examples of musicians not overwhelmed by the history of the music.

most searchers & innovators WILL cut ties with a potential audience as that isn’t the goal in the first place. And some who never played anything even related to bop or hard bop (Brotzmann, Gustafsson, Butcher, Maneri, etc.) will obviously not appeal to most who are most interested in that more traditional music. 

I’ve seen numerous shows with very small crowds where the music would elevate for the second set while the audience might be half or a quarter of the first set number. My experience (to my initial surprise) is that the musicians were elated and simply very grateful for those who were there and I suppose for the opportunity to create the music they created. Truly broken free from the past, the future and any expectations of anything in the moment. Will they be great historical figures one day? Methinks I guess it doesn’t matter any longer either.

[JSngry]

Cecil Taylor was once asked how he felt about 3/4 of his audience leaving before the first set was over. His answer was along the lines of "screw 'em, I play for the 25% that stay."

That's the whole thing in a nutshell, really. You don't worry about the people that aren't there, you serve the ones that are. And so be it.

I keep hearing people talking about Braxton's Ghost Trance music being really alienating or something like that. I don't get that at all. Maybe I'm just the type of audience he was looking for with that.

[Steve Reynolds]

Evan Parker told a friend of mine (who produces jazz records/runs a small great label) that he plays for the “front row” when he was asked if he would play a bigger  very famous spot in NYC if he my friend could have gotten him the gig. 

Glad to know he’s playing for himself and people like some of us. 

A new young (maybe he’s just turned 23?) friend of mine who is new to the more outre jazz and has loved the first three shows we’ve gone to together.

First was Mary Halvorson duet with Randy Peterson!!!! which we both loved. Being my pal is a guitarist and we were 5 feet away, I think he was a bit amazed to actually see Mary live, chat with her, etc. 

Second was opening night of Vision Fest - celebrating Dave Burrell - but the memorable sets were a surprising good quartet with Archie Shepp playing way better than I figured he could - with Burrell & William Parker & Hamid Drake in graceful complementary modes  - but the last set with Edward “Kidd” Jordan elevating took both of our collective breaths away (is that a poor cliche?)

THEN we went to see Tony Malaby with a new quartet with Ben Monder (long time associate and well known guitarist, Tim Dahl on electric bass & Gerald Cleaver replacing the listed Ches Smith. He was thrilled by seeing those who left quickly after the first set stunned and not to thrilled to hear what they heard maybe expecting something somewhere near what they think jazz might be. 

The ones who loved it stay or care for the second set and it was probably the strongest 50 minutes of live music I’ve heard over the last 9 months or maybe a year. Legacy? Don’t think so. The guys in the band were fucking glowing when it ended. Who cares who was there but my friend and I were.

[Brad]

3 hours ago, jlhoots said:

I liked the article. 

I as well.