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Archival LP Presentations with Multiple Takes in a Row


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Am I the only one who hates these?  I've accumulated a number of Savoy twofers (and others) in which all of the alternate takes - sometimes as many as five - will be presented in a row.  It is impossible to enjoy these albums for casual listening.  At least with a CD, you can program what you want.  Why don't they vary the alternate takes, and put the master takes together for a listening experience?  Oh well, at these prices, I shouldn't complain. 

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1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Am I the only one who hates these?  I've accumulated a number of Savoy twofers (and others) in which all of the alternate takes - sometimes as many as five - will be presented in a row.  It is impossible to enjoy these albums for casual listening.  At least with a CD, you can program what you want.  Why don't they vary the alternate takes, and put the master takes together for a listening experience?  Oh well, at these prices, I shouldn't complain. 

 

Agreed (in MOST cases, not all). 2 takes one after another are OK (particularly if by an artist or band that DID vary their output) but 3 or 4 each time? There have a been a number of occasions where I prefered sticking with a "complete master takes only" reissue for this very reason.

What I also find annoying at times is when they include studio chatter (of little relevance) on an occasional track (or more often) for no good reason. Showing off that they have been the first to dig up some original tapes?
I cannot see the point either of leaving in the take announcements - as on a Hank Penny CD on the Westside label bought some time ago) where Syd Nathan is heard anouncing in a very formal voice "Master xxx take Y" on at least half a dozen tracks.Just this and nothing else. What for?

As far as vinyl goes, i find that the CIRCLE label was one of the unnervingest. 4 different tunes to one entire LP with countless alternates and even false starts, breakdonws etc. per track (I am exaggerating only slightly). Picked them up occasionally anyway if VERY cheaply.

Sometimes you end up with funny stuff anyway. I once bought a Sonny Boy Williamson II LP with Chess recordings that for some reason had a VERY lengthy nonstop version of one tune including false starts, studio chatter and an alternate (or so) and was clearly marked "Not suitable for airplay" on the cover. Small wonder ... Sonny Boy at one or the other point seemed to have become disgusted with the proceedings and can be clearly heard to speak his mind: "Li'l bitch .... motherfucker'" .... Mine is the German pressing and not that this would have mattered at the time over here (record bought in 1977 or so when heavier LP stuff was around - talk about "casual" listening ...) and regardless of why anyone would play the full "in-the-making" version of a Sonny Boy tune at all even on a late-night radio show but I can very well imagine the radio station manager of some US station throwing a fit when his DJ tried to spin this on the oh so "wholesome" all-family format radio program somewhere out there. Ha! HA! :D

Edited by Big Beat Steve
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A truly casual listener is aware only that there's something musical going on in the background. They won't be bothered past that. All they are listening for (not to) is a music-ish event that is filling out the silence and/or covering up the ambient sounds of the area.

There's an India restaurant that I've eaten at for years that has a loop of music that only lasts about 15 minutes or so. Do you know how long it took me to pay enough attention to know that it was a loop? About 10 years. I was "listening" to i but not paying attention to it, focusing instead on conversation and the deliscous food. That's casual listening!

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7 minutes ago, JSngry said:

A truly casual listener is aware only that there's something musical going on in the background. They won't be bothered past that. All they are listening for (not to) is a music-ish event that is filling out the silence and/or covering up the ambient sounds of the area.

There's an India restaurant that I've eaten at for years that has a loop of music that only lasts about 15 minutes or so. Do you know how long it took me to pay enough attention to know that it was a loop? About 10 years. I was "listening" to i but not paying attention to it, focusing instead on conversation and the deliscous food. That's casual listening!

Let's substitute "casual" with "non-academic, non analytical."  Does that help?

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1 minute ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Let's substitute "casual" with "non-academic, non analytical."  Does that help?

At any rate it's much more to the point and it nails the problem. There are alternate takes that are sufficiently different to capture your ear at once and there are those that need "analytical" dissecting (and maybe in fact in-depth liner notes to make you aware of what to listen for ;)) to appreciate the differences at least passably completely. Not always an approach one fancies in listening, even if it is NOT just a case of "background muzak listening".

Often it would be better if they placed the alternates separately from the master takes. Which HAS been done, particularly in the CD era, BTW. But of course then there are those who don't like THAT either.

 

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I think Mosaic's solution to put the alternates at the end of each disc is the best - you can move on to the next disc or keep on listening. There are alternates with minor differences to the masters, and others with totally different solos, which of course are the ones that really catch your attention. I see your point - I had the two French LP box sets with Basie's complete Columbia output but decided to sell it as it was cumbersome to skip up to four alternates. 

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9 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Let's substitute "casual" with "non-academic, non analytical."  Does that help?

That restaurant needs no help. I continue to enjoy their output on a regular basis and now laugh about the loop.

As for you current quandary, the only way to solve it is to do what we did back in the day - make a mixtape of just the takes you want to hear. Fire up the old cassette machine, it's dubbin' time! And it keeps that vinyl fresh!

Hey, fight analog with analog. Live by the LP, die by the LP.

On a serious note - those LPs were not made for casual listeners. They were mad at a time when presenting "documents" of older music was the object of the game. So, they are what they are.

For me, if it's Bird, ok. Other, lesser people...maybe not so much, although the other side of the coin is when on a CD you get the original album played though, and it's a satisfactory ending and THEN you get alternates, it's kinda like watching those "behind the episode" HBO things. I mean, yeah, ok, sure, thanks for not really helping. But what I do like is those DVDs where you can select to hear somebody's commentary as the show plays. That's something I don't know that anybody's tried for archival releases with multi-take material, have an interesting commentary provide a narrative between cuts narrating the session as it goes along. Unfortunately, most people who would be best qualified to do this are now dead. But Ira Gitler is still alive, right? And he was present at at least some of the Monk Prestige dates,maybe all? Just have him walk us through the session as it went down, like liner notes only in your ear with the music.

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It can be too much of a good thing. For the analytical listener it can be interesting to follow the development or perfectioning of a take. 

In the recently issued Nat King Cole box set there is a bonus disc with numerous takes of a pop song, "Thank You Pretty Baby" - they mainly tried out different patterns for the rhythm guitars - I have the greatest respect for Cole because his vocals are impeccable in every take. But I doubt that I will ever listen to all these takes again.

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11 minutes ago, mikeweil said:

 I had the two French LP box sets with Basie's complete Columbia output but decided to sell it as it was cumbersome to skip up to four alternates. 

Being the Basie fan that I am, I MIGHT even be tempted by those for completeness sake (and bouts of analytics ;)) if I came across them dirt cheap but as it is I am quite happy with the six twofers with the master takes.

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1 hour ago, JSngry said:

On a serious note - those LPs were not made for casual listeners. They were mad at a time when presenting "documents" of older music was the object of the game. So, they are what they are.

Well, as part of the jazz audience, I was not interested in such presentations, and I waited until these kinds of albums hit the dollar bin before I picked them up.   I might have paid full price if the music was artistically organized.  So, there is no one-size-fits-all approach with jazz.  There's hardly anyone buying the records as it is.  

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I would say just be thankful that all the available data is made available to you. After you have that, you can make it work for you any way you like. The Miles marathon sessions LPs, I put those into session order on cassettes. Same thing with some Bill Evans session. Why? Because I wanted to, and especially because I could. A bit of a pain with LPs and cassettes, but, you know if you're not part of the solution, sit down and STFU (or something like that...). Once you buy a record, you can do whatever you want to with it.

Digital exponentially simplifies everything. I really don't understand the complaint about CDs. Gee, all you gotta do is select what you want and BOOM, there it is, CD-R/playist/whatever just as you like it. If it was any easier, it would be illegal.

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1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Digital exponentially simplifies everything. I really don't understand the complaint about CDs. Gee, all you gotta do is select what you want and BOOM, there it is, CD-R/playist/whatever just as you like it. If it was any easier, it would be illegal.

Agree.  It's the poorly sequenced LPs that bug me; hence, my starting the thread to begin with. 

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