Chuck Nessa Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 Seeing a few Criss sessions being mentioned, I wondered about personality traits keeping artists back. From my experience Sonny was a "bitcher and whiner". I am sure this cost him some jobs in the '70s & '80s. Wonder how many other artists fell into this trap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 Frank Morgan! A "bitcher and whiner" in the top class. I posted before about the time he time he berated the house rhythm section (Willie Pickens, Larry Grey, Wilbur Campbell) at the Jazz Showcase after the first set of the first night for no good reason at all, after which Willie, who grew up with Frank in Milwaukee, said that that's the way he always was -- adding that he thought it was because Frank had a deep fear of failure because his father had been very hard on him as a boy. BTW, Wilbur was far from happy to be spoken to that way. On the other hand, Frank, in the years after he got out of prison and became a media darling, probably got as much or more out of his talent than he deserved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medjuck Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 2 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said: Seeing a few Criss sessions being mentioned, I wondered about personality traits keeping artists back. From my experience Sonny was a "bitcher and whiner". I am sure this cost him some jobs in the '70s & '80s. Wonder how many other artists fell into this trap. Or how many people do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 I remember trumpetist Joe Newman was famous for that. He seemed to enjoy playing in my hometown Vienna, but after a few occasions no one from the local musician scene wanted to play again with him. He had that attitude to "lecture" the band members on stage about how to play, how not to play etc etc etc. Never understood why. He was a solid trumpet player in the mainstream style, but not more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said: Seeing a few Criss sessions being mentioned, I wondered about personality traits keeping artists back. From my experience Sonny was a "bitcher and whiner". I am sure this cost him some jobs in the '70s & '80s. Wonder how many other artists fell into this trap. I'm sure it did, though probably not always for his whining, with him having died in November, 1977. And since "whining" seems to go with "berating" here, I wonder how big an artist one would have to have been so as not have been kept back by this. Or were they? Charles Mingus, anyone? Edited October 24, 2018 by Big Beat Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulpope Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 Don Byas (vaguely remember some stories from gigs in the 60`s, but unfortunately can`t trace the source) .... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 33 minutes ago, soulpope said: Don Byas (vaguely remember some stories from gigs in the 60`s, but unfortunately can`t trace the source) .... ? Yes, Don Byas, and Brew Moore and Lucky Thompson. I remember having read in Ronnie Scott´s book about them as being difficult. But do you also remember Joe Newman at Jazzland , it was quite an embarrassing experience to see him lecturing our really good local sidemen who performed with him. The bass player said he wouldn´t play again with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulpope Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 1 minute ago, Gheorghe said: Yes, Don Byas, and Brew Moore and Lucky Thompson. I remember having read in Ronnie Scott´s book about them as being difficult. But do you also remember Joe Newman at Jazzland , it was quite an embarrassing experience to see him lecturing our really good local sidemen who performed with him. The bass player said he wouldn´t play again with him. Know this story only via your previous post .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 1 hour ago, soulpope said: Know this story only via your previous post .... you can read it from Axel´s stories on the site of the club. "Story des Monats".... one of them is about that incident. I liked to read it because I witnessed it myself. And almost everybody who played with that same rhythm section loved it, so it was not their fault, it was just Joe Newman´s attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 You got a link, maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 Also, not making gigs or being late to them has derailed plenty of guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgcim Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 I can't mention names here, because the parties are still alive, but I was talking with one veteran player about his day hanging out with a guy who is known for having a great attitude on the stand, and even today, is still doing the top gigs, jazz or otherwise. He mentioned the fact that the guy with the great attitude just got a great Broadway gig, because the guy he replaced was fired for playing practical jokes on members of the band. The guy who got fired is a player who was on most big band jazz records recorded on the East Coast from the 50s onward, and had a rep for shoving things in players' horns, untuning instruments on breaks, hiding drumsticks, etc... Apparently, it developed into a type of mania that he couldn't control, and despite warnings to cut it out, the conductor couldn't take it anymore, and fired him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 ""was on most big band jazz records recorded on the East Coast from the 50s onward" oh god! im going through the list! frank foster? noooooo,,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeBop Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) I think this is one where I'd resist the temptation to "figure it out". I've had enough people I've looked up to tainted. Fortunately, this isn't as bad as some of the stuff that's come out about others. One guy who was kind of a friend of mine, late in his life, probably lost some professional achievement potential based on his attitude; this attitude was apparently worse in the days before I knew him. If you want to read about it, it's here. I want to be fair, though. He was never less than nice to me. But unfiltered honesty can be abrasive. The book was written after what would have been the peak of his career, so the book is just the legacy of an attitude he had for a period. Edited October 25, 2018 by BeBop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 I was talking to Bryan Carrot at a recording session (my friend Ruth Naomi Floyd's date, I think her third album, "Walk and Not Be Faint") about the Ralph Peterson Fo'tet, and was telling him that I did not find Steve Wilson's playing with the Fo'tet as compelling as Don Byron's. He replied that Steve Wilson was gaining a reputation as a guy who dependably comes in and takes care of business. I guess that carries a lot more weight than we think about from the outside, which makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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