How “Baby It’s Cold Outside” May Be Out in the Cold

[Scott Dolan]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

These stations were not forced to not play the song, they chose not to.

Yep, just up and chose to in a vacuum. 

[JSngry]

30 minutes ago, mjzee said:

Some counter-assertions:

http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/

https://newrepublic.com/article/119364/cdcs-report-one-five-women-raped-other-statistics-disagree

 

From the former:

These alarming headlines were typical of the coverage of last week’s Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report on sexual and intimate violence in the United States. The CDC study—the second in two years—seems to support a radical feminist narrative that has been gaining mainstream attention recently: that modern America is a “rape culture” saturated with misogynistic violence.

Ok, using a purported agenda to immediately discredit data, I'm turning off right away, not a credible conversation for me. Debate the merits of the facts on the merits of the facts, don't these emo fear words on me.

From the latter:

Still, the CDC numbers are a reminder of how many sexual assaults and rapes go unreported. The total number of rapes reported to police in 2011 was 83,425—far lower than either the NCVS or CDC numbers. If the 2011 CDC estimate—almost two million people cases—all fit the legal definition of rape, that would mean only 4 percent were reported to the police. Even excluding alcohol- and drug-facilitated rapes, the 716,000 counts of completed or attempted penetration recorded by the CDC still add up to more than eight times the cases recorded by the FBI and almost three times as many as the Department of Justice. While finding an indisputable number of rape victims seems to be a Holy Grail, the CDC report certainly reveals that the most widely accepted estimates aren’t high enough.

Personally, I find an argument over rape statistics a shameful diversionary tactic. Rape is not the whole of inapproriate non-concensual sexually aggressive behavior. Hell, I was a young guy once, and I'm ashamed but not unwilling to admit that there were times when I pushed the envelope just to see how much "no" was in that no. This was common behavior in those days, and that was before we all had access to free porn to program us into having entitlement expectations as our baseline.

Did I ever rape anybody? No, not even almost. But did I act like a jerk and only give up after treating women who had, in retrospect, no intent of ever saying yes? Yes, I did. And I raised both a son and a daughter with the benefit of the lessons of my errors to DO NOT DO THAT TO A WOMAN. and DO NOT LET A GUY DO THAT TO YOU. They seem to have listened, so although I cannot redo the past, at least I can do my part to improve the future.

So yeah, there's pain here, in this debate. Real pain that people would just as soon not have to confront on the public airways during a holiday season. That's not statistic-dependent for validation, that's just basic humanity.

6 minutes ago, Scott Dolan said:

On demand ban. 

I'm not sure what part of that you are not comprehending. 

I'm not comprehending how what is inarguably a voluntary ban by independent entities lines up in any way with "totalitarian". Those two words, "voluntary" and "totalitarian" are fundamentally incomparable.

Show me where any of these stations were forced against their will to make this decision. They heard from people, yes, and they no doubt felt some pressure, but that is how shit is supposed to work. There is no forcing going on, and definitely no totalitarianism.

Shit is working exactly how it's supposed to work in a free market. It's sloppy as hell, but true freedom is at least as often as it's not. If you're afraid of totalitarianism, look elsewhere. You'll not have too difficult time finding real things of that nature to worry about.

[Scott Dolan]

Nope. You’re right. The program managers of those stations just woke up one morning and said, “I’m banning this song, just cuz”. 

Funny how those individual, personal decisions came about in a vaccuum, isn’t it? I mean, gosh, what are the chances! 

[lipi]

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence

RAINN says 1 out of 6 and the WHO shows similar numbers.

The Time and New Republic pieces bring up the NCVS survey's much lower estimates. (The NR article is actually OK, though their speculative reasons for the differences are just that: speculative. The Time article was written by Cathy Young, who has an axe she likes to grind. More problematic is that she appears to either misunderstand statistics, or likes to muddy the waters.) Critique of the NCVS survey and its likelihood of undercounting sexual crimes:

https://www.nap.edu/catalog/18605/estimating-the-incidence-of-rape-and-sexual-assault

On a similar note, the NCVS survey is interview-based, while the CDC numbers appear not to be. Interviews are notoriously bad places to get people to disclose cases of victimhood. See: https://www.nap.edu/read/10581/chapter/3#22 In other words, the NCVS survey is likely to heavily under-report crimes like sexual assault.

 

FWIW, anecdotal evidence (i.e., people I know in my immediate surroundings) suggests (though of course hardly proves) that 20% is much nearer the mark than 2%, and possibly still too low.

[medjuck]

26 minutes ago, lipi said:

 FWIW, anecdotal evidence (i.e., people I know in my immediate surroundings) suggests (though of course hardly proves) that 20% is much nearer the mark than 2%, and possibly still too low.

My experience too  amongst women I know. In fact if you include things like groping in the subway it's almost 100%.  

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Scott Dolan said:

Nope. You’re right. The program managers of those stations just woke up one morning and said, “I’m banning this song, just cuz”. 

Funny how those individual, personal decisions came about in a vaccuum, isn’t it? I mean, gosh, what are the chances! 

Seriously? That's kinda entry-level sarcasm, am I wrong to expect better from you? (and feel free to repay this compliment after reading this post)

Don't ignore the oblivious - groups of people (both words plural) expressed displeasure with the song. Is that not their right?

Stations heard them, and then made a business decision. Is that not their right?

And now there's a debate, and some stations are reconsidering, while some are standing pat.

How is any of this totalitarian?

"Ban" is one of those emo panicwords that strikes fear in the hearts of the already fearful (there are many words, and many fearful people, you can scare damn near anybody about something, for me it's bone fractures and fried liver). People like Frank "It Can't Happen Here" Zappa (and sure it can) kinda burned it into everybody's heads and then Tipper Gore played right into his hand (but really, was the Parental Warning label such a bad idea, really? Obsolete as hell now, but you know, if I'm buying a record for a 9 year old or something, I think it's fair to let me know that I shouldn't just consume blindly) . What has happened and is happening here is no need to fear the brown-shirts. "Louie Louie" got banned, "Negro music" got banned" Beatles records got fucking burned, and wow, here they all still are, right where the indignant idiots left them, only more ensconced. This is America!

"Radical feminist narrative that has been gaining mainstream acceptance recently: that modern America is a “rape culture” saturated with misogynistic violence."

Think about that - first of all just what the fuck is a "radical feminist" anyway? That phrase means nothing to me. And what does it say that this so-called narrative of thier's is supposedly "gaining mainstream acceptance"? Is it possible that maybe, just maybe, there's a lot of people stepping back, taking a look around, and thinking, whoa, maybe something to that, let's recalculate and see where we go?

People putting ideas out, people considering them and then acting on them, conversations had, decisions made, controversies ensue, evolution occurs (or doesn't), how the fuck any of that lead to totalitarianism?

You know what totalitarianism looks like to me?

None of that happening.

Ever.

Stay fluid.

 

 

 

52 minutes ago, medjuck said:

In fact if you include things like groping in the subway it's almost 100%.  

Yeah, well, you know, shit like that doesn't matter. It's only actual penatrative rape that can legitimately piss a good girl off, and even then, help is as nearby as the nearest community college GAS appreciation class. Or the nearest porn outlet. Either way, GET OVER IT AND GET BACK TO WORK.

Fellas, am I: right, or am I right?

[Teasing the Korean]

Currently having my piano tuned by Laura Leslie's son.

Note that Miss Leslie decides to stay after all at the end of the record, turning the song into a proto-women's empowerment anthem.

 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

Afraid I'm going to have to ask who is Laura Leslie?

[Brad]

8 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Afraid I'm going to have to ask who is Laura Leslie?

Not a lot of info about here. The best I could find is that “she was a big band and pop singer. In the 1940s she sang with Sammy Kaye often performing duets with Don Cornell. By the end of the 1940s she began to perform and record under her own name.”

[JSngry]

I have heard of Don Cornell (from somewhere...), definitely heard of Sammy Kaye, Mr. Swing & Sway with Sammy Kaye.

I have also heard of Laura Lee, and Lisa Leslie, Don Meredith & Cornell Dupree, Sammy Spear & Danny Kaye, but putting them altogether, not Laura Leslie.

Until now, that is!

[Teasing the Korean]

23 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Afraid I'm going to have to ask who is Laura Leslie?

She was a New York group singer, who worked with my parents, who were also in the biz.  Laura was married to session guitarist Bill Suyker, who was Burt Bacharach's A-list guitarist.  When Bacharach would do concerts around the US, he would always take his New York rhythm section with him, including Bill. 

The piano, in case you were worried, sounds great.  It needed regulation.  I like to play very quiet, fat chords, and there was too much play between the hammers and strings previously.  

Edited December 21, 2018 by Teasing the Korean

[Brad]

2 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

She was a New York group singer, who worked with my parents, who were also in the biz.  Laura was married to session guitarist Bill Suyker, who was Burt Bacharach's A-list guitarist.  When Bacharach would do concerts around the US, he would always take his New York rhythm section with him, including Bill. 

The piano, in case you were worried, sounds great.  It needed regulation.  I like to play very quiet, fat chords, and there was too much play between the hammers and strings previously.  

You may have posted this before or it may be generally known but if you don’t mind me asking, who were your parents?

[Teasing the Korean]

37 minutes ago, Brad said:

You may have posted this before or it may be generally known but if you don’t mind me asking, who were your parents?

They were session singers.  You wouldn't know them by name.  They sang on jingles and did Oohs and Aahs for Perry Como, Gordon Jenkins, and others. 

My Dad's brushes with jazz include work with the Dave Lambert Singers; writing a song recorded by Duke Ellington; and having Mundell Lowe back up my mom on the demo for an album he wrote (which never got past the demo stage).

Back to Laura Leslie:  She is on the excellent but hard-to-find LP Voices from the Apartment Below by the Eddie Thomas Singers.  Dusty sells a copy every now and then. 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Teasing the Korean

[Brad]

1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said:

They were session singers.  You wouldn't know them by name.  They sang on jingles and did Oohs and Aahs for Perry Como, Gordon Jenkins, and others. 

My Dad's brushes with jazz include work with the Dave Lambert Singers; writing a song recorded by Duke Ellington; and having Mundell Lowe back up my mom on the demo for an album he wrote (which never got past the demo stage).

Back to Laura Leslie:  She is on the excellent but hard-to-find LP Voices from the Apartment Below by the Eddie Thomas Singers.  Dusty sells a copy every now and then. 

Even though they may not be known by name to the general public, that's still impressive.  Thanks. 

[Teasing the Korean]

28 minutes ago, Brad said:

Even though they may not be known by name to the general public, that's still impressive.  Thanks. 

You're welcome!

[JSngry]

Quite impressive indeed! Real time skills, I'm a fan!!

What was the song that Duke did? And were they perchance on the Lambert Singers date with Bird?

[Teasing the Korean]

30 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Quite impressive indeed! Real time skills, I'm a fan!!

What was the song that Duke did? And were they perchance on the Lambert Singers date with Bird?

I'm not certain which records of Dave Lambert's my Dad was involved with.  The details on the singers are usually sketchy.  Dave, like most group leaders, used a pool of singers that varied from one session to the next based on who was available that day.  I'd like to hear that Charlie Parker date!  I've never heard it.  

The Duke song is a 1938 track with Ivie Anderson on vocals, called "You Gave Me the Gate and I'm Swingin.'"  I have long wanted to write down the story of how they crossed paths, and I will be happy to share it here in a separate thread if anyone is interested.  I am slammed between now and Christmas so it may be week or so.  

[JSngry]

Would love to hear the story, and hope to live for a while longer.

Bird w/Lambert Singers (and Gil Evans):

Off the top of my head, these are the only tow tunes, but there are multiple takes.

https://news.allaboutjazz.com/charlie-parker-old-folks.php

Oh yeah, one more:

 

[Teasing the Korean]

Those are great, thank you!  I think this would have been the era when my Dad was working with Dave Lambert, so it is possible.  Forgive my ignorance, but were those two tracks east coast or west coast dates?  My parents were only east coast.  

My parents also did some dates with the arranger Howard Biggs, and they back up Johnny Hartmann on one session. 

 

[medjuck]

43 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Those are great, thank you!  I think this would have been the era when my Dad was working with Dave Lambert, so it is possible.  Forgive my ignorance, but were those two tracks east coast or west coast dates?  My parents were only east coast.  

My parents also did some dates with the arranger Howard Biggs, and they back up Johnny Hartmann on one session. 

 

East Coast dates.  

1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I'm not certain which records of Dave Lambert's my Dad was involved with.  The details on the singers are usually sketchy.  Dave, like most group leaders, used a pool of singers that varied from one session to the next based on who was available that day.  I'd like to hear that Charlie Parker date!  I've never heard it.  

The Duke song is a 1938 track with Ivie Anderson on vocals, called "You Gave Me the Gate and I'm Swingin.'"  I have long wanted to write down the story of how they crossed paths, and I will be happy to share it here in a separate thread if anyone is interested.  I am slammed between now and Christmas so it may be week or so.  

Since I presume your dad was neither  Duke Ellington nor Irving Gordon, was he J Farmer or J McNeely? 

[Teasing the Korean]

27 minutes ago, medjuck said:

East Coast dates.  

Since I presume your dad was neither  Duke Ellington nor Irving Gordon, was he J Farmer or J McNeely? 

Yes.  Neither Duke nor Gordon had anything to do with the writing of the tune.  The artist and the publisher wanted a slice.

I'll tell the whole story in a separate thread when I have time. 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Teasing the Korean

[mjzee]

The 1940 movie “The Philadelphia Story” opens with a case of domestic assault played for laughs — Cary Grant shoving Katharine Hepburn to the ground by her face while a jaunty musical score plays.

Eight decades later, the movie is clearly two things: uneasy fare for a post-#metoo culture — and an enduring American classic. And it’s far from the only example of such things.

They exist throughout society’s pop-culture canon, from movies to TV to music and beyond: pieces of work that have withstood time’s passage but that contain actions, words and depictions about race, gender and sexual orientation that we now find questionable at best.

Whether it’s blackface minstrel routines from Bing Crosby’s “Holiday Inn,” Apu’s accent in “The Simpsons,” bullying scenes in “Rudolph, the Red-Nosed Reindeer,” the arguably rapey coercion of “Baby, It’s Cold Outside” and “Sixteen Candles” or the simplistically clunky gender interactions of “Mr. Mom,” Americans have amassed a catalog of entertainment across the decades that now raises a series of contentious but never-more-relevant questions:

What, exactly, do we do with this stuff today? Do we simply discard it? Give it a free pass as the product of a less-enlightened age? Or is there some way to both acknowledge its value yet still view it with a more critical eye?

More here: Old favorites, outdated attitudes: Can entertainment expire?

[Scott Dolan]

“Rapey”? 

How silly. 

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Scott Dolan said:

“Rapey”? 

How silly. 

Full quote, please - " arguably rapey ", and that's apt. Arguably indeed, that's an accurate description.

And yes, it's a legitimate discussion. I've been fascinated/repulsed by watching a lot of PD B-movies from the 30s and 40s and seeing just how degrading the African-American stereotypes were. You know, if you look at the "mainstream" films from that era that have remained in the public's eye today, you will see these stereotypes, but they are, mostly, "refined" compared to what else was going on in the movies in those days. I've seen outright "coon" type behavior dumbed down even further than it already was. Then you look the actor up on IMDB and you find out, oh, this guy was a legit actor, college-educated, skilled in this and that, but here they are playing this imbecilic infantile adult-boy/girl whose only purpose in the life is to amuse and otherwise serve the white folks. And that's all they ever did, this type of role, and there were more people to play them than there were roles, so everybody shows up in just a handful of movies, But cumulatively....wow.

There's a LOT of this and other stuff in these type films that would so not fly today, not even get off the ground. In many ways, it's almost an underground genre. "Hollywood" wanted no part of it because it's very seldom "top-shelf", but if you want to better understand just how deeply ingrained all this casual racism/sexism/every other -ism (and all the cumulative sensitivity/hostility to it) is ingrained in the collective cultural consciousness, it behooves you to take a dip in the deep, deep, deep waters of the castaway movies of our cultural legacy.

I once heard it said that the real objection to "Amos & Andy" wasn't that it wasn't funny in itself, almost everybody agrees that it was. The objection was the lack of any further type of characters in the culture to provide context for the buffoonery. It's worth looking at some of the survivin examples of so-called "Black Cinema" to see how true this rings. Whatever else there is there, there is the opportunity to see men and women being other things than servants and buffoonish sidekicks. And we know that black people in America, especially in pre-integration days, had multi-faceted communities with professional classes. And we know that rail porters weren't just there to shines you shoes, carry your backs and just say yassuh, there were there to make money for their families, and often to get their kids into and through college. Real life not at all represented by "Hollywood". Probably not very many people today recall just how radical Sidney Poitier was in his time..yes we have come a long way, but there is further still to go and we do run the risk of looping rather than progressing, that is why debate is imperative - debate, not stifle.

And women? Tell me again how women have always been free to be who they want to be and to think as they want to think without male judgement/imposition. Was I taking a nap when that world existed?

None of the modern sensitivities, nor the resistances to them, are the result of anything sudden. This is an inevitable pivot point of a long-running cultural evolution. We'll see how it proceed, because it will proceed. The biggest mistake we can make is to wonder "why now?". Personally, I'm surprised it's taken this long to get here!

And oh btw - I occasionally relax and unwind with the AccuRadio app. This season, they have an entire channel dedicated to nothing but apparently all the different versions of "Baby It's Cold Outside". So all this banophobia that was in the air, relax, we are still a free people, and where there's freedom of controversy, there's freedom of profit.

Same as it ever was.

[Scott Dolan]

I do not give two half-assed fucks what kind of descriptor is placed in front of it. 

“Rapey” is weapons-grade idiocy in decribing those lyrics. Period. 

Rape is the most dehumanizing, violent, criminal act one human being can perpetrate on another. 

If this is even mildly “rapey”, then all seduction is “rapey” so we might as well erase the word from existence due to the redundancy.