scooter_phx

Trying to help out Mosaic by suggesting sets

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On 4/27/2019 at 4:30 AM, miles65 said:

It's a box set 11 CD's

The Toronto bassist/blogger Steve Wallace covered this extensively when it was released 5 years back:  https://wallacebass.com/keynote-address/#comments and followed up with notes on the label itself, and some further thoughts:  https://wallacebass.com/keynote-address-part-two-notes/

It's the kind of review you rarely see...

 

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58 minutes ago, Ted O'Reilly said:

The Toronto bassist/blogger Steve Wallace covered this extensively when it was released 5 years back:  https://wallacebass.com/keynote-address/#comments and followed up with notes on the label itself, and some further thoughts:  https://wallacebass.com/keynote-address-part-two-notes/

It's the kind of review you rarely see...

 

Ted, this is phenomenal.  Thank you for posting it. 

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After reading the above I gave in and bought the set from Amazon.  It arrived today and I'm really impressed. What Steve Wallace wrote is exactly what I would have written if I could write as well as he does.  I just hope that it's as good sonically as it is visually. 

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I got the Keynote box before Mosaic, when it came out from Japan. Worth every penny -- though I'm semi-ashamed to say that they sent  it to me (a journalist at the time) as a promo. Those were the days.

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25 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

I got the Keynote box before Mosaic, when it came out from Japan. Worth every penny -- though I'm semi-ashamed to say that they sent to me (a journalist at the time) as a promo. Those were the days.

So you got the Mercury set, not the Fresh Sound?

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15 hours ago, JSngry said:

So you got the Mercury set, not the Fresh Sound?

Yes.

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Is Fresh Sounds a PD label? If so, can I add it to the short list of quality PD labels?

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Yes, and it depends. Very seldom do they do their own work.

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Yes, they are.  As an example, their Lucky Thompson Complete Parisian Small Group Sessions is tremendous and they put out a lot of CDs of French artists. I just received the Keynote box and the book is very detailed and well written. 

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I would wager, though, that they used the Mercury masters for their Keynote box. That seems to be what they do most of the time, either needle drops or lifts of other people's masterings. Sometimes they "get" tapes. And once in a while, as with the Nocturne stuff, they actually do things legit!

No sense quibbling over it, they're a known quantity by now, they do what they do, and enough people like it to keep them in business. You can do that when you have low overhead.

But never feel bad about ripping their products and giving copies to your friends. When it comes to the music part of their product, that's what they themselves frequently do.

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Posted (edited)

21 minutes ago, JSngry said:

But never feel bad about ripping their products and giving copies to your friends. When it comes to the music part of their product, that's what they themselves frequently do.

I don't disagree with most of the statements you made but disagree with this one. The stuff they're making is in the public domain  in Europe and they have the right to do so whereas you're moralizing about what they do. If you're buying a generic drug are you ripping off the original manufacturer? No, the generic maker has the right to make it. 

If FS is making stuff that is not PD, then I'd agree with you. 

Edited by Brad

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I don't mind them doing it. I just don't feel obligated to pay them for what they do, unless I want their packaging.

13 minutes ago, Brad said:

If you're buying a generic drug are you ripping off the original manufacturer? No, the generic maker has the right to make it. 

False equivalency insofar as the generic drug manufacturer still bears the expense of obtaining their own ingredients/components/etc. They can't just wait until their competitors put some out and then go take that.

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13 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I don't mind them doing it. I just don't feel obligated to pay them for what they do, unless I want their packaging.

False equivalency insofar as the generic drug manufacturer still bears the expense of obtaining their own ingredients/components/etc. They can't just wait until their competitors put some out and then go take that.

Totally correct equivalency insofar as the generic drug manufactuer uses someone else's RESEARCH work and results (like FS MAYBE sometimes uses someone else's previous remastering) and as for the expense of ingredients, well, FS or other PD labels haven't been known to just slap their logo on someone else's ready-produced CDs and booklets etc., either. So the production HARDWARE and SUBSTANCE input is there and is comparable too. 

 

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look, I've been buying bootleg jazz since 1968. Haig used to complain to me about Everest Archive of Jazz; he wrote them letters which of course they never responded to. But the truth is, without these labels we would know about half of what we know about the music's history. They exist because the majors have always had their heads where the sun don't shine. 

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1 minute ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Totally correct equivalency insofar as the generic drug manufactuer uses someone else's RESEARCH work and results (like FS MAYBE sometimes uses someone else's previous remastering) and as for the expense of ingredients, well, FS or other PD labels haven't been known to just slap their logo on someone else's ready-produced CDs and booklets etc., either. So the production HARDWARE and SUBSTANCE input is there and is comparable too. 

c'mon man, lifting somebody else's work is not "research". Be serious about this, please. Are you a felon or something, that you can seriously use that line?

look, they do what they do, everybody knows what they do, and that's that. They lift other people's masterings, will use needle drops, gladly use bootleg live recordings, and combine them into their own combinations and the create a package around that. They do not - as a rule - negotiate for any of it. Labels like Uptown, Resonance, etc, put out the same type of archival live stuff, and they pay as required. Fresh Sounds does not.

I get the Euro PD laws cover most of this (not sure about the live recordings, though), but really - how often do you not get a Fresh Sound product that has not already been released somewhere else, with somebody else's masterings. It's "great" that they can combine labels and such, that makes it easy for people who are too poor or too lazy to do their own buying and combining, and it's "great" that they'll add bonus cuts of live material that has been circulating on the global widewebs for at least a decade now, that's a real service for people who don't have the time or the smarts to figure out how all that has worked. It's great that they're there to take your money, and it's great that people are happy to give them they're money.

But the question was if they are a "quality" PD label. To that, all I can say is that they are usually a good compiler of other people's quality work.

No illusions about their product and you'll be fine. Start justifying, pretending, and ignoring, and slippery gets the slope.

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35 minutes ago, AllenLowe said:

look, I've been buying bootleg jazz since 1968. Haig used to complain to me about Everest Archive of Jazz; he wrote them letters which of course they never responded to. But the truth is, without these labels we would know about half of what we know about the music's history. They exist because the majors have always had their heads where the sun don't shine. 

Very true, and I totally feel that. But bootleg and PD are two different creatures. We all knew what a bootleg was, and we all knew (or figured) that the Everest shit was sketchy. That Eric Dolphy record? PRICELESSLY sketchy!

But nobody defended them as being other than what they were, and nobody actually figured that they were going to just help themselves to anything they could get.

No, a good bootleg is still a thing of joy. A Fresh Sounds product is still like somebody walking away from the lunch counter and they forgot their to-go order, and they don't come back for it and you say, hey, ok, here's my lunch. And oh, look, here's a cup of coffee nobody's drinking, might as well take that too. And then you get back to the office and some poor soul can't get away for lunch and they offer you a few bucks for that sandwich and coffee. And of course you take it, because you hate to see a co-worker go hungry, but you know, you got expense too.

Bon apetit!

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Posted (edited)

30 minutes ago, JSngry said:

c'mon man, lifting somebody else's work is not "research". Be serious about this, please. Are you a felon or something, that you can seriously use that line?

look, they do what they do, everybody knows what they do, and that's that. They lift other people's masterings, will use needle drops, gladly use bootleg live recordings, and combine them into their own combinations and the create a package around that. They do not - as a rule - negotiate for any of it. Labels like Uptown, Resonance, etc, put out the same type of archival live stuff, and they pay as required. Fresh Sounds does not.

I get the Euro PD laws cover most of this (not sure about the live recordings, though), but really - how often do you not get a Fresh Sound product that has not already been released somewhere else, with somebody else's masterings. It's "great" that they can combine labels and such, that makes it easy for people who are too poor or too lazy to do their own buying and combining, and it's "great" that they'll add bonus cuts of live material that has been circulating on the global widewebs for at least a decade now, that's a real service for people who don't have the time or the smarts to figure out how all that has worked. It's great that they're there to take your money, and it's great that people are happy to give them they're money.

But the question was if they are a "quality" PD label. To that, all I can say is that they are usually a good compiler of other people's quality work.

No illusions about their product and you'll be fine. Start justifying, pretending, and ignoring, and slippery gets the slope.

 

Did I say anything anywhere about lifting somebody else's work (what DEFINITE proof do YOU have of how many cases, BTW?) is RESEARCH? What I DID say was that if they did use somebody else's remastering then this is equivalent to a generics producer using the someone else's research work (where most of the initial development expenses occur). So do some careful reading (and comprehending) in your mother language, please, watch your tongue and stop accusing others of things they never said.

As for who pays whom, the slippery slope is elsewhere as I'd guess you know if you'd be  honest with yourself. Just for comparison, ONE point about the Japanese reissue labels so often praised in one sweeping gneralization that has been made before (and I'll gladly make it again because you have been remarkably evasive about this before) - how come reissue series such the CDs by VMG Salsoul of a couple of years ago carry a fine print on their back page that CLEARLY says "Not for sale outside of Japan"? Can you give me any other PROVEN reason for this than that whatever license they may have paid only covers domestic marketing in Japan but not worldwide marketing (As this would no doubt have required higher fees)? YET these things are being marketed everywhere and US buyers in particular have been falling all over themselves in snapping up whatever Japanese reissues came from there (remember the endless lists here?) and touting them as the godsend if there ever was one. Admittedly buying from Japan has always been much more of a pain in the ass from over here (including price-wise) than it may have been in the US so this is where some convenience aspect comes in but calling this laziness or coming on with some snobbish "too poor" accusation is just a load of nonsense. If you want to whine about laziness then go and tackle those out there (including many forumists) who cannot be interested enough in pre-hard bop period stuff (because hard bop and later stuff takes up all their full-price money, it seems) to pay for what you may call the "real thing" and go for cheapo Proper box sets instead.
In short, lots of double standards over THERE wherever you look.
And now, as for "how often do you NOT get a FS product ...", taking just one instance that comes to mind, go and find me some other pre-FS CD reissue of the Vinnie Riccitelli Westchester Workshop platter if you will, please. And then go on and check the FS subsidiary Blue Moon catalog and see how often you draw a blank there.

 

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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Hey, I have often been lazy and poor, often - but far from always - at the same time. So I know whereof I speak. It's not a snob thing, it's reality. As are the assessments of Fresh Sounds' general business model.

I don't understand why reality is snobbish. That has not been my experience in life. Quite the opposite, actually, it's the snobs that have no grasp of reality.

How are things in your town?

 

 

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Posted (edited)

1 minute ago, JSngry said:

How are things in your town?

 

 

Fine. The one record shop stocking stuff of interest to me still going strong.

What did YOUR Riccitelli research yield?

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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Well then, enjoy!

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Again - any news on the Riccitelli? ^_^
Incidentally this would be another case where I'd have to find fault with the FS business and reissue policy of combining 2 LPs (of which one is easier available to those in the know) on one CD because I do own 2 different original pressings of that LP so don't need a CD but would have to get that if I wanted the accompanying Johnny Glasel LP badly enough.
Yet what is more important to me is that they every now and then tread where others cannot be bothered, so more stamina to them. It's a tradeoff. Like the tradeoff between labels making use of PD laws vs labels throwing stuff on the market with minimal playing time at outrageous prices for an excedingly small availability time frame to maintain a sort of built-in "collectabilia" status that all too many fall for.

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10 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Again - any news on the Riccitelli? ^_^

Are there any remastering credits on there? Or is it a needle drop? Or is it a needle drop that's been cleaned up digitally (wow, REAL WORK!). Or did they use the original tapes? If so, how did they get them?

If they did the right thing (as opposed to simply doing the legal thing), kudos to them, and one mark on the extremely uncrowded + side of their ledger.

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1 hour ago, JSngry said:

But the question was if they are a "quality" PD label. To that, all I can say is that they are usually a good compiler of other people's quality work.

For the sake of clarity (a bit late now) I'd define a quality PD label as one such Hep or Chrono Classics or early JSP that makes its own transfers. As much as I disdain PD labels that nick other labels' masters, I suppose I have to give credit to those who do a straight nick and don't fuck them up with "remastering", such as late JSP. Sounds like FS belongs in the latter category.

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2 hours ago, Brad said:

Yes, they are.  As an example, their Lucky Thompson Complete Parisian Small Group Sessions is tremendous and they put out a lot of CDs of French artists. I just received the Keynote box and the book is very detailed and well written. 

Fresh Sound did a great job with their two Jeri Southern boxes.

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Posted (edited)

19 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Are there any remastering credits on there? Or is it a needle drop? Or is it a needle drop that's been cleaned up digitally (wow, REAL WORK!). Or did they use the original tapes? If so, how did they get them?

If they did the right thing (as opposed to simply doing the legal thing), kudos to them, and one mark on the extremely uncrowded + side of their ledger.

Please read my post again. I do have TWO different versions of the original LP and therefore do NOT need the CD (as for the time being the Johnny Glasel LP is not that essential to me). Judging by similar reissues I would not expect much "fine print" there but - like it or not - reality being what it is, doing the legal thing is not something to really hold against them either as long as the sonics are OK. And re- what Captain Howdy said, in cases like this this would have involved doing one's own transfers (to an extent that is not less than what e.g. Chronological Classics did - whose soncis werent always top notch either).
YMMV but others' M will be of importance to them only, not to third parties. Because tastes differ.

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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