scooter_phx

Trying to help out Mosaic by suggesting sets

469 posts in this topic

22 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

Does FS at least wait until the material they nick goes OOP?

That's a good question, and honestly, I don't know. Seems to me like they generally have, but I'll let Bloodhound Big Beat Steve get on the trail of that one.

50 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Besides, as you ought to know if you were honest, burning your private CD-Rs is not the best way to really archive your music in a comparably fail-safe manner in the LONGER run. So this download thing is just a stopgap in many respects at best.

Oh c'mon now, this is 2019. That's a 1999 argument. The longest run I'm interested in is another 25-30 years , at most. After that, hey.

50 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

In short, as long as you keep whining about FS but do not go out of your way in EXACTLY the same intensity to blast anyone who brings up names such as Proper, JSP...

Dude, now it's time for you to read - all the "Fresh" Sound talk is in the context of Captain Howdy (Howdy, Captain!) asking it Fresh Sound was a "quality" PD label. It's you who are degrading us all by bringing these decidedly inferior products into the conversation.

Please, for the love of humanity, stop degrading us all!

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2 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

"In the pursuit of remediating their grievance against rights holders, [consumers] are at the same time dis-incentivizing those same parties from releasing any further product."
 

Bingo.

So consumers should wait until record companies manage to get product out there, whenever that may be, 5, 10 or 20 years? That’s just not how the business world works. The “early bird catches the worm.” If you’re late to market you will lose the customers. 

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Posted (edited)

31 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Oh c'mon now, this is 2019. That's a 1999 argument. The longest run I'm interested in is another 25-30 years , at most. After that, hey.

 

Tell the blank manufacturers. Just the other day I've had one fail in my player (crackling and distortions increasing from track to track from about halfway through the disc as if something has been disintegrating) from a batch of 7 or 8 identical blanks burnt for me by another collector in 2015 or so (all others are fine). Wasn't like that when I received the lot so the fault was not there from the start. Overall problems HAVE been few - even with CD-Rs burnt 20 years ago, but reason enough to be wary with items that are definite keepers. Regardless of whether 25 years from now will (likely) be the end of the road for me too.

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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One thing to be said about FS -- whether or not it's in their favor -- is that when it comes to "research," they have a considerable ability to sniff out just the sort of now or always obscure or semi-obscure stuff from the periods whose soil they sift through that those who are on the look out for just such stuff either have long been on the look out for or can tell themselves that  this is the sort of stuff that they should have been long on the look out for. What sort of skill this is, if indeed it is a skill, I couldn't say, but without its presence at some level within the FS empire, there might be no FS whatsoever.

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Blanks? That's 2000!

For real, I skip blanks 99% of the time. I keep files, and I keep backups of files. I have hard copies out the ass now (almost literally...), so this is the only way to keep all the shared stuff. If I  burned all that stuff AND keep buying what I buy, there will be no room left, and then thats a showdown of a more serious kind.

Philosophical reservations aside, that's a very practical reason I  don't buy FS stuff. No value added, but more space reqired.

11 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

One thing to be said about FS -- whether or not it's in their favor -- is that when it comes to "research," they have a considerable ability to sniff out just the sort of now or always obscure or semi-obscure stuff from the periods whose soil they sift through that those who are on the look out for just such stuff either have long been on the look out for or can tell themselves that  this is the sort of stuff that they should have been long on the look out for. What sort of skill this is, if indeed it is a skill, I couldn't say, but without its presence at some level within the FS empire, there might be no FS whatsoever.

Back when the blogosphere was going full speed, you'd see a needle drop posted on a blog, do a little research and see that there had been a Japanese reissue, and then soon enough, here comes Fresh Sounds. Evans Bradshaw immediately comes to mind.

They hustle, for sure. Not sure it's the kind of hustle I'd want my kids to emulate, but thats just me.

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2 hours ago, Brad said:

So consumers should wait until record companies manage to get product out there, whenever that may be, 5, 10 or 20 years? That’s just not how the business world works. The “early bird catches the worm.” If you’re late to market you will lose the customers. 

Yeah.....only in this case, we're talking about a market that sells produce that has fallen off of somebody's truck that they didn't come back for.

I don't know about you, but if I go to that type of market (and I certainly will), I don't expect to pay anywhere near full price. It's good that that produce is being eaten, but....

Just sayin' - at some point, the roads and the trucks will get better, and then where does that type of market go to for product?

Does anybody ever fall up a slippery slope?

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39 minutes ago, JSngry said:

at some point, the roads and the trucks will get better

I don't know: there's a lot of old jazz that the majors seem to have abandoned, such as the big bands. Virtually every important release of the last 15 years has probably come from Mosaic or maybe Hep, but not from the majors. They're too busy re-releasing the classic rock canon in ever-expanding packages with newly discovered alternate tracks, demos, and live recordings. If they saw the potential to exploit the aging jazz market as thoroughly as they have the aging rock market I'm sure they would do so. They've parked their truck full of produce and left it to rot.

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As long as we're knocking folks sitting on the material they own:  I'm pissed at the Goodman and Ellington estates-- or rather the lawyers representing them-- for not allowing The National Jazz Museum of Harlem (or whatever it's called) to release  the Savory recordings of the Charlie Christian with Goodman, and  Ellington material that the museum holds.  Apparently they want more than the museum can pay  since they promised everyone else they have made deals with that they would treat everyone the same. 

Because of the new Mickey Mouse inspired copyright laws in the US , no recorded music will enter the public domain until long after I'm dead.  If FS (or anyone else) makes the music being sat on available I'm buying it.    If the very few companies that now control most of the music I'm interested in don't want to release it as atoms they could  easily (I think--I'm not really sure of the difficulty involved) make it available  on line. 

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2 hours ago, Captain Howdy said:

I don't know: there's a lot of old jazz that the majors seem to have abandoned, such as the big bands. Virtually every important release of the last 15 years has probably come from Mosaic or maybe Hep, but not from the majors. They're too busy re-releasing the classic rock canon in ever-expanding packages with newly discovered alternate tracks, demos, and live recordings. If they saw the potential to exploit the aging jazz market as thoroughly as they have the aging rock market I'm sure they would do so. They've parked their truck full of produce and left it to rot.

I feel you, but would ask to join me in a silent prayer to be granted an answer to the question of if there has been any other point in history where shit eventually got lost or otherwise just plumb disappeared and people actually noticed.

But if you do notice, and then care, you have a life''s adventure ahead of you in researching, collecting, and otherwise abandoning a normal life, or at least what gets sold as one these days.

God bless you if you choose that path, and should you not so choose, hey that''s how shit disappears!

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1 hour ago, medjuck said:

Because of the new Mickey Mouse inspired copyright laws in the US , no recorded music will enter the public domain until long after I'm dead.  If FS (or anyone else) makes the music being sat on available I'm buying it.    If the very few companies that now control most of the music I'm interested in don't want to release it as atoms they could  easily (I think--I'm not really sure of the difficulty involved) make it available  on line. 

A noble sentiment, but why this insistence on "companies" to provide what is already there? Technology makes "companies" extremely optional when it comes to getting "abandoned" historical material.

And let's  be clear that a true PD enterprise will/should price their product in a manner that reflects the lack of creative-investment overhead. If such an enterprise offers product at standard market rates, they better offer significant value added. "Oh good, now I can hz chzzbrgr" might be 'value added' in today''s world, but hell, just look at today's world and tell me how much more fatlazystoopids of ALL demographics we can handle before imploding into one globularactic mass of fresh shit.

Besides, it will be a blessing for civilization when all of us ravenously entitled "Boomers" finally die (in the aggregate, of course) and get our foots off the world''s neck.

Evolve or die is a false choice. It''s both, and it's not a choice.

Zounds!!! Fraysh!!!

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Posted (edited)

15 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

One thing to be said about FS -- whether or not it's in their favor -- is that when it comes to "research," they have a considerable ability to sniff out just the sort of now or always obscure or semi-obscure stuff from the periods whose soil they sift through that those who are on the look out for just such stuff either have long been on the look out for or can tell themselves that  this is the sort of stuff that they should have been long on the look out for. What sort of skill this is, if indeed it is a skill, I couldn't say, but without its presence at some level within the FS empire, there might be no FS whatsoever.

I am quite surprised that this kind of statement comes from an expert like you. What you describe is what makes labels like FS of considerable interest to those who like to make new musical finds and DO prefer physical product and not just some files on some servers.

I for example have always been interested in discovering the obscurities and forgotten names in my preferred styles of music as to me these are the names that ACTUALLY flesh out the bones of musical history (as set up by the big names) and add to providing the actual FULL scope of the music. So I’ve always done my share of reading to try and get a fuller picture. If others are content with the big names and obvious candidates only and don't care about the "rest" - fine, but there are those who do like to dig not only deeper but also off the trodden paths of the usual suspects. This DOES yield discoveries every now and then of overlooked gems and of forgotten names and only then will it tell you the FULL history of the period in question (cf. Phil Moore in the case of the apparently highly selective projected B&W Mosaic set - he was omnipresent back then but how many comprehensive reissues of his work and musical involvement - like Fantastic Voyage did with  the 3-CD Maxwell Davis set - have you seen through the decades, starting from the vinyl era, huh?).

After finding such records became easier on internet I scrounged ebay.com  in the early 2000s for a time (I eventually gave up as shipping and rising prices made it less viable) and snapped up a fair share of never-reissued (to the best of my knowledge) oddities such as the Vinnie Riccitelli Westchester Workshop mentioned earlier, plus similar items from the 50s LP era (Mil-Combo, Arch Martin, Bob Davis, Westlake College Quintet, etc.etc.). It all was and is out there to be found - in discographies, auction lists, mags and books (First Pressings, anyone?). Some of this may well have since been reissued on FS (because they do seem to dig in the same territory, though on a much wider scale) or elsewhere. Sure it was a pity that “my” Riccitelli LP, for example, blocked half of one of their 2 LPs on 1 CD FS reissues but that's my problem and not something I can really hold  against their reissue policy. No doubt there are enough who never have heard or seen either of the 2 items on this kind of reissues. So they and other labels like this DO cover uncharted territory. 

Now you as a historian may consider these “also rans” of no essential importance to the overall history of the music and perhaps are satisfied with focusing on the bigger names but this is – please don’t take it personally – just you and you will notice that in ALL collectible fields of music there are lots of listeners out there who ARE interested in these overlooked or forgotten (minor) heros and like to explore them – through the records and through finding out about them in print. Beyond a "the obscurer the better" collector-cum-musical archeologue fascination, all these acts contributed to the music at the time. Which is why books like “Before Motown” by Bjorn & Gallert or “Swingin’ On Central Avenue” by Peter Vacher are more than welcome as they fill voids and why magazines such as “Blues & Rhythm” (that often covers obscure acts IN DEPTH) still thrive in THEIR field and why sites like the Red Saunders Research Foundation exist etc. Because, honestly, if you WANT to dig deeper, then - to use some random exemples (not referring to any particular publications but to recurrent treatment of subjects like this), how many more articles does the jazz world need on the mental issues of Bud Powell or the bandleader-catalyst role of Electric Miles? How much is there out there that has NOT yet been said and written on subjects like this? Whereas a LOT of other details have neither been researched nor documented nor published.

So Mr Sangrey’s dismissive statement of “an answer to the question of if there has been any other point in history where shit eventually got lost or otherwise just plumb disappeared and people actually noticed. But if you do notice, and then care, you have a life’s adventure ahead of you in researching, collecting, and otherwise abandoning a normal life, or at least what gets sold as one these days” which basically boils down to all these minor acts or details or musical history not being worth documenting should be something that should strike a chord of disagreement with you. Even if you see yourself more as a jazz writer than a historian there no doubt is some historian in you anyway, isn’t it?
Trying to document what otherwise might be lost, BTW, is done in MANY other areas of history and collecting even by amateur historians day in day out. Simply because they LOVE TO.
Besides, today the resources for documenting – for one’s personal pleasure above all - what at other times may just have been forgotten or lost forever are better than ever, so why not take advantage of it if you WANT to? Whoever dismisses this approach ought to ask himself if maybe it just is a case of sour grapes of “I can’t cope so I disdain those who manage”. And if music historians or music writers don’t want to they may have to answer questions to themselves eventually …

Anyway … what you see as an “ability to sniffing out the obscure stuff” IMO is just the fan and amateur historian’s delight in trying to get the FULL picture. Something that PRO historians should take as a NATURAL route. Whoever dismisses this will see that the loss is on him eventually, not on those who thrive on digging deeper.
Happens everywhere and in OUR hobby of music of course ends up with attempts at making this music available again. Because once you find out there was a specific record you eventually want to be able to listen to it. Whatever ANYONE may hold against FS (or other PD labels) using other people’s previous masterings, there is a LOT happening beyond that even at FS. Try and find a lot of previous reissues of what they reissued in the Blue Moon R&B series, for example. I doubt P-Vine in Japan, for example, ever did ALL that before. So would FS have been able to nick ALL that anywhere else? In fact as far as I can see FS made a point of COMPLEMENTING the Classics Blues & Rhythm CD series (while it was still around) instead of “nicking” it. What more does a collector want in such a nichey niche market (barring the price question)?

Just like it happens elsewhere: Re- the ultra-comprehensive Red Saunders Research foundation website mentioned above, how do you think, for example, the “Best of Club 51 Records” CD with release no. C-101 (blatant, isn’t it?) came about? Fairly basic presentation, no doubt a PD (or bootleg, if you will) attempt at making available what was covered in the Club 51 label section on the website. But now the music IS out there again and certainly not something where anybody else has been nicked wholesale before but rather the result of diehard collectors rounding up ALL the obscure releases to make them available againfor those who’d like to listen (and remember NOBODY who feels aloof of such minor acts will be forced to listen).
There are PLENTY labels like that – e.g. the Cactus, Blaze or Pontiac labels in the R&B field or the Cactus and BACM labels in the hillbilly and Western Swing area. Fidelity varies, remastering often is inexistent (but honestly, considering what full-price majors or renowned reissue labels such as Document have done in the past I can in most cases very well live with that in the case of 78 rpm era music). Backyard-basement operations, sometimes CD-Rs instead of CDs, sometimes really basic presentation (FS is high class compared to most of them), sometimes a shoestring operation that still tries to offer whatever they can within their operational limits (BACM is run by a bunch of elderly country music lovers and collectors but they do get experts and historians in that field to contribute liner notes). I have only bought a sampling of these labels’ reissues through the years because the few retailers who stock these often price them a bit on the steep side. But you have to give credit to the labels that while some tracks clearly are lifted from other labels’ previous reissues they all do dig up a lot that has never been reissued before. In short, collectors pooling their collections to cover subjects or labels COMPREHENSIVELY. Something no major would EVER do. And Mosaic could not be bothered either anyway.

Of couse downloading etc. would be an alternative but it does have its snags. Who’d want to see his PC infested by some ransomware because some of the servers where the uploaded stuff made available for download was badly infested? Which is why the basically excellent “Western Swing on 78” website has been gone for years now. (I narrowly escaped that once there myself - despite McAfee) Once bitten, twice shy, not to mention all other reasons that to some are not in favor of non-tangible soundfile stuff.
Mr Sangrey may sneer at this way of marketing or wanting physical products but this is immaterial in the overall picture – that’s just HIS sentiments and he is only ONE of jeez knows how many out there who may be the target audience.

So - honestly, in the same manner and seing the likelihood of any other reissues I’d be all in for any PD or backyard label that would go THAT way in covering all the never before reissued 40s bebop or 50s 10-inch era modern jazz recordings. And this is why I still feel that quite a few PD labels do the collector a service. Warts’n all. Even if there are plenty of warts.

 

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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And see, you just wrote more words than I can ever read today defending the PD process, and that's something I'm on board with 100%

But if you think that Fresh Sounds is just another PD label, doing noble PD label work, you're a fool.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

But if you think that Fresh Sounds is just another PD label, doing noble PD label work, you're a fool.

You can rant and rage as much as you like about FS. This only raises questions on your judgment. So the fools actually are those who try to fight a battle where there isn't any. Labels like FS serve a market and demand and fulfill a purpose. Part of the overall PD sector of the reissue world. That's all. Nobody is foreced to buy their product. "Noble" is not a criterion that comes into play. Most other reissue labels aren't there to lose money either.

I still cannot quite fathom why you rant and rage about FS, of all PD labels, with there being so many that are way cheaper AND duplicating other reissues to a much, much larger extent (and therefore not nearly filling as much of a niche). FS must have accomplished something that is what you would oh so dearly have loved to see others accomplish and now realize they never will be able to cope. Or FS must have made stuff more easily available so that the "chosen few" can no longer drool about THEIR finds and purchases made elsewhere. One of these aspects seems to gall you. Sure, go ahead and let off steam if it helps, but remember - you are just one single listener with an opinion and preferences like everybody else, but that's just yours and others are entitled to feel differently, so don't expect others to be intimidated into feeling uneasy because the "moral authority JSngry" says what they do is bad, bad, bad ... As long as PD laws are what they are and the PD laws are complied with it's not. Pure and simple.

And remember - it's still more in line with the laws than buying overseas product in a market where this product is marked "Not for sale" as this looks treacherously like those who buy it there have bought product where no licensing fees for selling in THAT market have been paid.

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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19 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

I still cannot quite fathom why you rant and rage about FS...

This has been painfully obvious over the years, so here, have a bowl of Menudo. It's delicious!

Try all three!

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A bit tasteless through the web, unfortunately. But I'll be all prepared to listen to some sound explanation. Or try the alternative - rant just as much whenever ANY of the other PD labels come up. ANY! If not you lose credibility. ^_^

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Who needs credibility when you have a pig?

 

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5 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

I am quite surprised that this kind of statement comes from an expert like you. What you describe is what makes labels like FS of considerable interest to those who like to make new musical finds and DO prefer physical product and not just some files on some servers.

I for example have always been interested in discovering the obscurities and forgotten names in my preferred styles of music as to me these are the names that ACTUALLY flesh out the bones of musical history (as set up by the big names) and add to providing the actual FULL scope of the music. So I’ve always done my share of reading to try and get a fuller picture. If others are content with the big names and obvious candidates only and don't care about the "rest" - fine, but there are those who do like to dig not only deeper but also off the trodden paths of the usual suspects. This DOES yield discoveries every now and then of overlooked gems and of forgotten names and only then will it tell you the FULL history of the period in question (cf. Phil Moore in the case of the apparently highly selective projected B&W Mosaic set - he was omnipresent back then but how many comprehensive reissues of his work and musical involvement - like Fantastic Voyage did with  the 3-CD Maxwell Davis set - have you seen through the decades, starting from the vinyl era, huh?).

After finding such records became easier on internet I scrounged ebay.com  in the early 2000s for a time (I eventually gave up as shipping and rising prices made it less viable) and snapped up a fair share of never-reissued (to the best of my knowledge) oddities such as the Vinnie Riccitelli Westchester Workshop mentioned earlier, plus similar items from the 50s LP era (Mil-Combo, Arch Martin, Bob Davis, Westlake College Quintet, etc.etc.). It all was and is out there to be found - in discographies, auction lists, mags and books (First Pressings, anyone?). Some of this may well have since been reissued on FS (because they do seem to dig in the same territory, though on a much wider scale) or elsewhere. Sure it was a pity that “my” Riccitelli LP, for example, blocked half of one of their 2 LPs on 1 CD FS reissues but that's my problem and not something I can really hold  against their reissue policy. No doubt there are enough who never have heard or seen either of the 2 items on this kind of reissues. So they and other labels like this DO cover uncharted territory. 

Now you as a historian may consider these “also rans” of no essential importance to the overall history of the music and perhaps are satisfied with focusing on the bigger names but this is – please don’t take it personally – just you and you will notice that in ALL collectible fields of music there are lots of listeners out there who ARE interested in these overlooked or forgotten (minor) heros and like to explore them – through the records and through finding out about them in print. Beyond a "the obscurer the better" collector-cum-musical archeologue fascination, all these acts contributed to the music at the time. Which is why books like “Before Motown” by Bjorn & Gallert or “Swingin’ On Central Avenue” by Peter Vacher are more than welcome as they fill voids and why magazines such as “Blues & Rhythm” (that often covers obscure acts IN DEPTH) still thrive in THEIR field and why sites like the Red Saunders Research Foundation exist etc. Because, honestly, if you WANT to dig deeper, then - to use some random exemples (not referring to any particular publications but to recurrent treatment of subjects like this), how many more articles does the jazz world need on the mental issues of Bud Powell or the bandleader-catalyst role of Electric Miles? How much is there out there that has NOT yet been said and written on subjects like this? Whereas a LOT of other details have neither been researched nor documented nor published.

So Mr Sangrey’s dismissive statement of “an answer to the question of if there has been any other point in history where shit eventually got lost or otherwise just plumb disappeared and people actually noticed. But if you do notice, and then care, you have a life’s adventure ahead of you in researching, collecting, and otherwise abandoning a normal life, or at least what gets sold as one these days” which basically boils down to all these minor acts or details or musical history not being worth documenting should be something that should strike a chord of disagreement with you. Even if you see yourself more as a jazz writer than a historian there no doubt is some historian in you anyway, isn’t it?
Trying to document what otherwise might be lost, BTW, is done in MANY other areas of history and collecting even by amateur historians day in day out. Simply because they LOVE TO.
Besides, today the resources for documenting – for one’s personal pleasure above all - what at other times may just have been forgotten or lost forever are better than ever, so why not take advantage of it if you WANT to? Whoever dismisses this approach ought to ask himself if maybe it just is a case of sour grapes of “I can’t cope so I disdain those who manage”. And if music historians or music writers don’t want to they may have to answer questions to themselves eventually …

Anyway … what you see as an “ability to sniffing out the obscure stuff” IMO is just the fan and amateur historian’s delight in trying to get the FULL picture. Something that PRO historians should take as a NATURAL route. Whoever dismisses this will see that the loss is on him eventually, not on those who thrive on digging deeper.
Happens everywhere and in OUR hobby of music of course ends up with attempts at making this music available again. Because once you find out there was a specific record you eventually want to be able to listen to it. Whatever ANYONE may hold against FS (or other PD labels) using other people’s previous masterings, there is a LOT happening beyond that even at FS. Try and find a lot of previous reissues of what they reissued in the Blue Moon R&B series, for example. I doubt P-Vine in Japan, for example, ever did ALL that before. So would FS have been able to nick ALL that anywhere else? In fact as far as I can see FS made a point of COMPLEMENTING the Classics Blues & Rhythm CD series (while it was still around) instead of “nicking” it. What more does a collector want in such a nichey niche market (barring the price question)?

Just like it happens elsewhere: Re- the ultra-comprehensive Red Saunders Research foundation website mentioned above, how do you think, for example, the “Best of Club 51 Records” CD with release no. C-101 (blatant, isn’t it?) came about? Fairly basic presentation, no doubt a PD (or bootleg, if you will) attempt at making available what was covered in the Club 51 label section on the website. But now the music IS out there again and certainly not something where anybody else has been nicked wholesale before but rather the result of diehard collectors rounding up ALL the obscure releases to make them available againfor those who’d like to listen (and remember NOBODY who feels aloof of such minor acts will be forced to listen).
There are PLENTY labels like that – e.g. the Cactus, Blaze or Pontiac labels in the R&B field or the Cactus and BACM labels in the hillbilly and Western Swing area. Fidelity varies, remastering often is inexistent (but honestly, considering what full-price majors or renowned reissue labels such as Document have done in the past I can in most cases very well live with that in the case of 78 rpm era music). Backyard-basement operations, sometimes CD-Rs instead of CDs, sometimes really basic presentation (FS is high class compared to most of them), sometimes a shoestring operation that still tries to offer whatever they can within their operational limits (BACM is run by a bunch of elderly country music lovers and collectors but they do get experts and historians in that field to contribute liner notes). I have only bought a sampling of these labels’ reissues through the years because the few retailers who stock these often price them a bit on the steep side. But you have to give credit to the labels that while some tracks clearly are lifted from other labels’ previous reissues they all do dig up a lot that has never been reissued before. In short, collectors pooling their collections to cover subjects or labels COMPREHENSIVELY. Something no major would EVER do. And Mosaic could not be bothered either anyway.

Of couse downloading etc. would be an alternative but it does have its snags. Who’d want to see his PC infested by some ransomware because some of the servers where the uploaded stuff made available for download was badly infested? Which is why the basically excellent “Western Swing on 78” website has been gone for years now. (I narrowly escaped that once there myself - despite McAfee) Once bitten, twice shy, not to mention all other reasons that to some are not in favor of non-tangible soundfile stuff.
Mr Sangrey may sneer at this way of marketing or wanting physical products but this is immaterial in the overall picture – that’s just HIS sentiments and he is only ONE of jeez knows how many out there who may be the target audience.

So - honestly, in the same manner and seing the likelihood of any other reissues I’d be all in for any PD or backyard label that would go THAT way in covering all the never before reissued 40s bebop or 50s 10-inch era modern jazz recordings. And this is why I still feel that quite a few PD labels do the collector a service. Warts’n all. Even if there are plenty of warts.

 

Steve: I wasn't mocking tastes for the obscure or the out of the way in the eras that Fresh Sound tills -- as someone who is now age 76 and who became a jazz fan in those very eras,  I share most of those tastes myself, and among other things happily (with the usual quasi-moral FS reservations along Sangrey-like lines) bought the Riccitelli/Glasel album because of the presence there of players I already admired  (e.g. Carmen Leggio, Eddie Bert) and then came to admire Riccitelli's writing.

Rather, I was pointing out, as I think I did quite clearly, that Fresh Sound's marketplace niche (more than a niche in the jazz world, by now I would say) depends or has depended to a considerable degree on, as I said, "their ability to sniff out stuff that certain sorts of fans [and, again, I'm among that sort] have been looking for for a long time or can be convinced that they should have been looking for..."etc. It you think that what I said is erroneous or just not worth saying, so be it. But I was far from denying the value of the music's so-called "also rans." I listened to many of them then as I made up my own mind about things, and I listen to many of them now. (BTW, do you know the ABC-Paramount Bobby Scott album with John Murtaugh and Marty Flax, or Johnny Keating's "Swinging Scots"? Among my favorite "also-rans" from adolescence, they remain quite good IMO and perhaps have some added cachet for me now because they speak so indelibly, and with certain odd twists, of who I was some 60 or more years ago.)

Now I don't know the story behind every such album that FS "rescues" from the waters of Oblivion -- Sangery mentioned in a post above that FS' Evans Bradshaw release rode on the back of a Japanese reissue and seemed to imply that this frequently has been the case -- but I guess I'd like to know what some or all of those stories are.  For instance, FS has now brought out a single disc combo of the first two albums (originally on Mercury)  by the late Chicago vocalist Frank D'Rone, a favorite of mine. Does Pujol or someone else at FS just  happen to be a D'Rone fan? Are they following in the wake of a previous compiler I know not of? Or Is "How is the sausage made that I might be tempted to buy?" a question of no interest or meaning?

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How is sausage made? That's easy!

 

5 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

For instance, FS has now brought out a single disc combo of the first two albums (originally on Mercury)  by the late Chicago vocalist Frank D'Rone, a favorite of mine.

http://www.frankdarone.com/FD_Store.aspx

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1 minute ago, JSngry said:

How is sausage made? That's easy!

 

Maybe what I meant was more "What goes into it?"

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2 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I've got many or most of those albums -- none of which can compare to D'Rone in person at his best (check him out on You Tube -- his balladering and  his ability to scat along with his very good guitar solos). But what FS has done is take "Frank D'Rone Sings" and the album D'Rone made with Billy May and put them out on one CD. Because I have a playable LP of the former, I'm only tempted, but again I'm curious about how such choices are made at FS Central.

And speaking of Frank, what of the late, somewhat similar, and virtually forgotten Chicago-based singer-guitarist  of the same vintage Johnny Janis? Originally signed by ABC-Paramount, Janis gave us, among other things, a bankrolled  by Hugh Hefner (he was a big Janis fan, Janis lived at the Playboy mansion for several years) mid-'60s album of balladering "Once in a Blue Moon" to die for (check it out on You Tube), an album with rhythm section on (I think) RCA with Max Roach vet Billy Wallace on piano, and a circa 1962 album that I think Janis self-produced at the time and that only came out decades later under his aegis, where he's backed by Ira Sullivan, Dodo Marmarosa (sublime comping), a bassist, and legendary drummer Guy Viveros. If Fresh Sounds puts out any or all of those, especially the one with Dodo and Ira, I surrender.

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16 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

but again I'm curious about how such choices are made at FS Central.
 

Singers from that era have never been a key interest of mine (my loss maybe in some cases, I know ...) so that name was unfamiliar to me.
But the question you raise is one I have often wondered about re- the FS catalog. If it was purely a matter of cashing in on whatever sales the jazz (and semi-jazz) niche market does yield I wonder how and why choices such as this are made. Items like this are as sub-nichey as they can get within the already small niche market. Not that I would see any purely altruistic motivations behind choices like this but there must be some determination and other motivation to get that particular item out, using whatever source material they can get their hands on and can legally get by with.
As for the CDs on the official D'Rone website, according to Discogs the "After The Ball" CD was reissued in Germany (of all places) by Universal/Verve in 2003 and according to Discogs remained available until 2006. So it must have been OOP for some time when FS reissued their version.
Discogs does not list a CD reissue of the "Sings" album, however. Not that this would indicate that there never was one but does anyone know if what is marketed on the website is an actual reissue that they still have stocks of and not some fan(club)-produced CD-R? Should not be that difficult to put out these days.

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Sings: was issued not by a fan club, but by the artist himself. Not being a fan, I;'ve not checked it (or his other stuff) out past what gets posted here. I would hope that what he sold was high enough quality to warrant the price.

Was D'Rone one of those guys who at some point bought back their masters?

No matter, there you go - both items already existing in the digital domain before FS puts them out. And there's more.

Easy!

 

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I'd like to be a fly on the wall and watch somebody get that Marc Myers guy really drunk and loosened up and get him to talking to see what kind of a relationship him and Jogri Pluohls really have. Maybe none at all.

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5 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Singers from that era have never been a key interest of mine (my loss maybe in some cases, I know ...) so that name was unfamiliar to me.
But the question you raise is one I have often wondered about re- the FS catalog. If it was purely a matter of cashing in on whatever sales the jazz (and semi-jazz) niche market does yield I wonder how and why choices such as this are made. Items like this are as sub-nichey as they can get within the already small niche market. Not that I would see any purely altruistic motivations behind choices like this but there must be some determination and other motivation to get that particular item out, using whatever source material they can get their hands on and can legally get by with.
As for the CDs on the official D'Rone website, according to Discogs the "After The Ball" CD was reissued in Germany (of all places) by Universal/Verve in 2003 and according to Discogs remained available until 2006. So it must have been OOP for some time when FS reissued their version.
Discogs does not list a CD reissue of the "Sings" album, however. Not that this would indicate that there never was one but does anyone know if what is marketed on the website is an actual reissue that they still have stocks of and not some fan(club)-produced CD-R? Should not be that difficult to put out these days.

To use an analogy that I do not intend to have any moral content, I think of the (as you nicely put it) "sub-nichey" approach  of Fresh Sounds in terms of pornography of a certain sort. The basic niche is so broad as to hardly be a niche at all -- all those who want and are willing to pay for sexually stimulating  experiences that are not (so they feel) available to them (readily or at all)  on a casual interpersonal-social basis. Within that very broad niche, I think it's fairly safe to assume that those who also have fairly esoteric tastes, the objects of which are even less readily available on today's market than what is there for the broad niche consumer (say, the sexual equivalent of that ABC-Paramount Bobby Scott album), will be virtually pre-sold customers for those firms that divine and then put out the sort of sub-niche material that suits their specialized  tastes. Thus I might guess that FS to some degree operates on that basis -- once a sub niche is divined by them, the products that fill it may well  be more economically viable for them to put out than non-esoteric material by a broadly popular artist whose efforts already are in the collections of many consumers. The former sort of material, if issued in the right (probably chary) amounts, probably  will be  lapped up by those who have esoteric needs/tastes,  while material of the latter sort probably will not be because the market for it is already glutted.

I'm not being judgmental here, just speculatively descriptive FWTW.

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