scooter_phx

Trying to help out Mosaic by suggesting sets

469 posts in this topic

Fresh Sounds are fine. Let’s not forget they have issued hundreds of original new recordings. 

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

To use an analogy that I do not intend to have any moral content, I think of the (as you nicely put it) "sub-nichey" approach  of Fresh Sounds in terms of pornography of a certain sort. ... 

... while material of the latter sort probably will not be because the market for it is already glutted.
 

Nice analogy. :lol: But not specific to jazz/music collectors but rather to collectors in any field of collectables. AND it remains that FS go where others have haven't bothered to tread for a long time, and if at times they have undercut the seeming exclusivity of Japanese reissues marketed with abysmal playing times and steep prices for an availability duration of something like 2 hours and 3 minutes for they go OOP then all the better. Particularly as it DOES seem like they usually hit the market when what had been aroudn before has gone OOP. PD at work, thats all.
However, I'd doubt that this is NOT a niche or sub-niche market OVERALL. Or has jazz become THAT much of a seller in absolute numbers again?

What is more, the items/artists of what you refer to as the "latter sort" still seem to sell and re-re-re-sell any time within this jazz niche market. Not much signs of the market being totally glutted, surprisingly. Or why are there so many on this and the Hoffman and what other forums or platforms (and they certainly aren't the only ones) who drool about the umpteenth remastering and reissue of one and the same well-known disc with ever so slight differences (sonically included) and fall all over themselves in praising themselves as having "upgraded" again and again, and of course according to them "you're nowhere" if you haven't fallen for that kind of marketing recycling. THIS is what I would call esoteric navel gazing, not so much (in most cases) the quest for obscurities.

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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18 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Or why are there so many on this and the Hoffman and what other forums or platforms (and they certainly aren't the only ones) who drool about the umpteenth remastering and reissue of one and the same well-known disc with ever so slight differences (sonically included) and fall all over themselves in praising themselves as having "upgraded" again and again, and of course according to them "you're nowhere" if you haven't fallen for that kind of marketing recycling. THIS is what I would call esoteric navel gazing, not so much (in most cases) the quest for obscurities.

Because we are relatively young and aren't yet saving for an upgrade to our rolators and hearing devices. Some type of music might be relatively unexplored until now, and naturally we compare previous and current editions in advance and strive to invest in the best available product.

Also, I'd rather chase down unknown great recordings in different genres than explore every dusty corner of jazz's past.

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You got me wrong. I am not talking about those who buy recent reissues instead of older reissues of the same thing because they do not have the music in any form yet but rather about those who seem to go all haywire all the time about getting their hands on the very latest in reissue and "upgrade" for the umpteenth time because they talk themselves into whatever "indispensable" (?) sonic upgrade there "must" be because it is a "new" version. Net improvements may exist in some cases but often it reeks more like Emperor's Clothes to me. Particularly as long as the Loudness War of remasterings has been going on. (And yes, in case you didn't notice - I WAS exaggerating a little bit just to make the point)

At any rate - tastes differ (including as to where exactly you want to go to explore further) so to each his own ... ;)

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34 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

who drool about the umpteenth remastering and reissue of one and the same well-known disc with ever so slight differences (sonically included) and fall all over themselves in praising themselves as having "upgraded" again and again, and of course according to them "you're nowhere" if you haven't fallen for that kind of marketing recycling.

This reminds me of a thread title I saw the other day on that site. I had to go back and find it: "Which Rolling Stones album/release do you have the most copies of?" The winner had "about 12 different CD versions" of Sticky Fingers.

12 minutes ago, erwbol said:

Because we are relatively young and aren't yet saving for an upgrade to our rolators and hearing devices. Some type of music might be relatively unexplored until now, and naturally we compare previous and current editions in advance and strive to invest in the best available product.

Also, I'd rather chase down unknown great recordings in different genres than explore every dusty corner of jazz's past.

But there comes a point at which it's no longer about listening to the music, it's about collecting the music. At that point, if you're being honest with yourself, you have to admit that you're not hearing any significant difference in this latest remastering, and the latest batch of demos, b-sides, rehearsals, live recordings, etc. are not "unknown great recordings" worth more than a single listening. I'd wager many of the Hoffmen spend more time writing about music than listening to it. Just look at some of the thread titles.

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Is Mosaic planning a "Complete Fresh Sound PD Reissue Releases" box (what would that be, a 250 CD set? They could follow up with "Complete Fresh Sound Productions" and "Complete Fresh Sound New Talent Recordings"), or what is this discussion about?

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25 minutes ago, king ubu said:

Is Mosaic planning a "Complete Fresh Sound PD Reissue Releases" box (what would that be, a 250 CD set? They could follow up with "Complete Fresh Sound Productions" and "Complete Fresh Sound New Talent Recordings"), or what is this discussion about?

And without derailing this thread any  further, Fresh Sound hat couple of new recordings of (mostly) old(er) West Coast greats definitely worth a listen ....

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2 hours ago, soulpope said:

And without derailing this thread any  further, Fresh Sound hat couple of new recordings of (mostly) old(er) West Coast greats definitely worth a listen ....

Not to mention some French jazz, which I like and have enjoyed listening to. Their Lucky Thompson 4 CD set was awarded a prize for best reissue in 2017 by the Academie du Jazz, which, I believe, is a leading jazz organization in France.  

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3 minutes ago, Brad said:

Their Lucky Thompson 4 CD set was awarded a prize for best reissue in 2017 by the Academie du Jazz, which, I believe, is a leading jazz organization in France.  

I have eventually bought it (also the single disc with live material that I didn't yet have) ... but having owned the two Vogue discs and all the Jazz in Paris, I got the Thompson set for I think about one disc's worth ... so while I think they indeed have done several very nicely presented set (Keynote, Nocturne, Shelly Manne, Shorty Rogers), they are still masters in adding some rare to the common and then having people re-buy the whole shebang to get the rarer part (which is often the same with their twofers or three-on-two sets).

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2 minutes ago, king ubu said:

I have eventually bought it (also the single disc with live material that I didn't yet have) ... but having owned the two Vogue discs and all the Jazz in Paris, I got the Thompson set for I think about one disc's worth ... so while I think they indeed have done several very nicely presented set (Keynote, Nocturne, Shelly Manne, Shorty Rogers), they are still masters in adding some rare to the common and then having people re-buy the whole shebang to get the rarer part (which is often the same with their twofers or three-on-two sets).

I had little of the material so for me it was a plus. Jazz Wax and Jazz Profiles has highlighted some of their recent issues such as the Bobby Jaspar Early Years and the Bop Minstrels.  I also recently picked up Melba Liston and Her Bones. This is a recording that is unlikely ever to be reissued by anyone else and glad to have it. 

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Yes, that Bobby Jaspar looks great indeed - haven't come around to buying it yet though.

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15 minutes ago, king ubu said:

I have eventually bought it (also the single disc with live material that I didn't yet have) ... but having owned the two Vogue discs and all the Jazz in Paris, I got the Thompson set for I think about one disc's worth ... so while I think they indeed have done several very nicely presented set (Keynote, Nocturne, Shelly Manne, Shorty Rogers), they are still masters in adding some rare to the common and then having people re-buy the whole shebang to get the rarer part (which is often the same with their twofers or three-on-two sets).

This is quite true and I have often been bugged by this in the past too, particularly in the 2 LPs on one CD packages. But in the end I realize it is above all my fault for already owinng a fair sampling of that sort of jazz (particularly a HUGE lot of FS vinyls bought back then ...). While I regret that they have "reissued" their earlier reissues that way I do realize that considering how very many jazz collectors there have always been who have dumped their vinyl once they jumped on the CD bandwagon I realize they see a market there. So who am I to "fault" eventually, particularly since this happens with reissuers elsewhere too. And honestly, if duplications and overlaps exceed a certain limit in the end a "there is no need to want to have EVERYTHING" attitude is starting to prevail here. ;)

As for Lucky Thompson, I'd like to get this set but am still on the fence as I already have a lot of the material too, though mostly on much earlier releases/reissues. So far the convenience of having everything on one single place has not won out ... ;)

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Another recording you were unlikely to see reissued anywhere else was Patti Bown’s Plays Big Piano.  

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41 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

As for Lucky Thompson, I'd like to get this set but am still on the fence as I already have a lot of the material too, though mostly on much earlier releases/reissues. So far the convenience of having everything on one single place has not won out ... ;)

You need the larger bands on a separate disc, too, if you want to dump your earlier releases (there's the small group box, a larger ensemble disc, and the live disc I mentioned, which is pretty good, though I'm not that fond of Ms Thompson's singing - she's not present on too many tunes, luckily).

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28 minutes ago, king ubu said:

You need the larger bands on a separate disc, too, if you want to dump your earlier releases

I don't - that's the point and "problem" (including because 1 or 2 of them are originals). I'd dump other CDs for a more comprehensive CD set but not vinyls (or very, very rarely). (But that's only me ... ;) )

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5 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

I don't - that's the point and "problem" (including because 1 or 2 of them are originals). I'd dump other CDs for a more comprehensive CD set but not vinyls (or very, very rarely). (But that's only me ... ;) )

I understand ... and will myself not dump the "Original Vogue Masters" and "Jazz in Paris" CDs either (no originals, alas), partly because for the large band material I didn't even consider getting the Fresh Sound disc, and I think the wonderful trio session with Peter Trunk that's on one of the Vogue discs is nowhere to be found on the Fresh Sound box, though I could be wrong about that.

Regarding LT in Paris, there's also the phenomenal "Lord, Am I Ever Gonna Know", one of my very favourite among his Albums.

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Patti Bown/Melba Liston - are these needle drops?

I know, I know, it doesn't matter..:rolleyes:

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Posted (edited)

34 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Patti Bown/Melba Liston - are these needle drops?

I know, I know, it doesn't matter..:rolleyes:

Probably are needle drops but since I don’t listen to a lot of vinyl, this is the most convenient way for me to listen to these albums. 

Note: I just looked on eBay and I could have purchased the Bown LP but not the Liston one. The Liston is on Discogs but at $44.  

Edited by Brad

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Ok, here's what I don't get - a good number of people feel ripped off when they are asked to pay full price for a CD-R of a professionally digitally mastered album. I guess there still might be a concern about the longevity of the medium, but apart from that, you're getting pro work all the way.

I feel ripped off when being asked to pay full price for a needle drop of an LP (even if it's combined with another other needle-dropped LP). Collectors swap that shit all the time, all you have to do is find one (collector), not be an asshole, and then ask. If it's got a few clicks, hey, software. Not even going to go into file-sharing/etc. Too 21st Century! :g

I get that there are those who don't like collecting at that level, don't have time, don't like meeting new people, don't like CD-rs, only get mail at a PO Box three counties away, whatever. I'm sure there's a few odd ducks who object to collectors exchanging burns of OOP material, period. Just keep in mind that by making the market clearly demonstrate that there's enough consumers who are NOT willing to do it themselves. the incentivization of anybody, now or in the future, to do it right is being reduced.

If you don't want to wait for the music, there are ways around that. If you don't want to wait for somebody to do it right before paying money for it, hey, this is now that world.

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Pardon me if this is deadly obvious, but I assume I'm fairly typical in saying this about PD labels: Aware of the ethical aspects, to the degree that I understand them, I try to steer away from PD labels and their (usual) needle drops but have given way now and then when the material is interesting to me and I'm not aware of another way to obtain it at this point or probably, so I think, ever. One example would be a collection of all the material by Les Jazz Modes, the band co-led by Julius Watkins and Charlie Rouse that recorded for Dawn and Atlantic. Another would be a collection of all the stuff that Sam Most recorded for Bethlehem (not close in quality to the IMO top-drawer albums that Most made in the '80s for Xanadu,  but there's some Schildkraut solos there, Allen Lowe). 

As for Jim's post about "collecting at that level," I can't imagine going there myself.

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2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Just keep in mind that by making the market clearly demonstrate that there's enough consumers who are NOT willing to do it themselves. the incentivization of anybody, now or in the future, to do it right is being reduced.

If you don't want to wait for the music, there are ways around that. If you don't want to wait somebody to do it right before paying money for it, hey, this is now that world.

I'm 64 years old, been collecting music since I was 10 (and jazz since I was 17).  Who's gonna do (for example) Lenny McBrowne and the Four Souls more "right" in my lifetime?

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8 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

As for Jim's post about "collecting at that level," I can't imagine going there myself.

Why not? You know and are on good terms with people who have the stuff, I'm sure. Probably a lot more than me

I backed off from it a good deal a while back because people are too kind. One guy told me "now you can have everything you want", and I was like WHOA, should I run away or to that? I ran to and then, realized - a little too late - what an all-consuming space-eater that was going to be, ran from.

I still don't have "everything I want", but I want a whole lot less now, not because I have more, but because I see what a dead end that becomes.

Still - I don't feel good about paying money to somebody for work they didn't do. Like those guys who drive up in a pickup with a little freezer in the bed who say they have some steaks they gotta get rid of because the butcher they work for bought too much. No, not doing that.

 

1 minute ago, felser said:

I'm 64 years old, been collecting music since I was 10 (and jazz since I was 17).  Who's gonna do (for example) Lenny McBrowne and the Four Souls more "right" in my lifetime?

YOU!!!!

It's a burn of a needle drop.

Really people - our "solution" to the very real problem of majors not handling their legacy assets in a market-friendly way is to just fucking let some other guy do it and pay him waaaay more money than what he expends to get it. Are we that desperate to be middle-manned to death? Has capitalism sucked our consumer brains and our backbone this dry?

The revolution WILL be televised, and we'll all be so glued to the set that THAT will be the revolution.

The transactional cynics continue to win.

#vomit.

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Posted (edited)

25 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

 Another would be a collection of all the stuff that Sam Most recorded for Bethlehem

I wa somewhat surprised to see that the Sam Most albums on Behtlehem (BCP 16 and BCP 75) that Fresh Sound reissued on vinyl in c.1987 don't not figure in their current CD catalog. And I cannot find any trace of now-OOP CDs they may have done earlier. However, Discogs tells me both albums have been reissued in Japan by Solid Records in 2010 and 2014, respectively. So there you are if you want to.
BTW, lest anyone complain about how far back the allegedly doubtful practices of FS go, both of the above reissue LPs carry not only the full FS address but also a small print on the labels that says the reissue was done by FS for the Spanish branch of CBS. No doubt not something you'd print there if it all was a hoax.

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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12 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

I wa somewhat surprised to see that the Sam Most albums on Behtlehem (BCP 16 and BCP 75) that Fresh Sound reissued on vinyl in c.1987 don't not figure in their current CD catalog. And I cannot find any trace of now-OOP CDs they may have done earlier. However, Discogs tells me both albums have been reissued in Japan by Solid Records in 2010 and 2014, respectively. So there you are if you want to.
BTW, lest anyone complain about how far back the allegedly doubtful practices of FS go, both of the above reissue LPs carry not only the full FS address but also a small print on the labels that says the reissue was done by FS for the Spanish branch of CBS. No doubt not something you'd print there if it all was a hoax.

12 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

I wa somewhat surprised to see that the Sam Most albums on Behtlehem (BCP 16 and BCP 75) that Fresh Sound reissued on vinyl in c.1987 don't not figure in their current CD catalog. And I cannot find any trace of now-OOP CDs they may have done earlier. However, Discogs tells me both albums have been reissued in Japan by Solid Records in 2010 and 2014, respectively. So there you are if you want to.
BTW, lest anyone complain about how far back the allegedly doubtful practices of FS go, both of the above reissue LPs carry not only the full FS address but also a small print on the labels that says the reissue was done by FS for the Spanish branch of CBS. No doubt not something you'd print there if it all was a hoax.

The Most compilation I bought was on Avid, which probably is as about PD a label as you can get. Thirty days in the stockade for me:

https://www.amazon.com/Classic-Albums-About-Musically-Amazing/dp/B06Y4325HM/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=sam+most&qid=1557164610&s=music&sr=1-1
 

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