scooter_phx

Trying to help out Mosaic by suggesting sets

469 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

25 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Really people - our "solution" to the very real problem of majors not handling their legacy assets in a market-friendly way is to just fucking let some other guy do it and pay him waaaay more money than what he expends to get it. Are we that desperate to be middle-manned to death? Has capitalism sucked our consumer brains and our backbone this dry?

That's capitalism (not an unknown quantity in the US of A in particular, I'd wager to say) - produce at price A, sell at price A + B = C and see if you can rake in the dfference B to make a profit. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Happens in EVERY way of life where goods are produced for end customer sale. Particularly if - as in the field discussed here - "majors handling their legacy assets" won't happen anyhow - and if it does, you'd often pay through your nose for shoddy packaging and listless compilation too. Has happened often enough.
And let's face it - there ARE needle drops that aren't that bad at all. If the very principle of getting a needle drop to work (and therefore not engaging in the loudness war) bugs you then - again - that's your problem , not everybody else's.
BTW, where were you when all the "honest-down- to-goodneess-American-like-Apple-pie" Ajax, Ajazz, Joyce etc. labels hit the market and sold at what looked like a fairly standard full U.S. LP retail price (according to Ray Avery's price lists of the early to mid-80s, for example)? Bought some of these dirt cheap from secondhand bins in the past just to fill a few gaps but soundwise they not only did not rate a comparison with the "name" label reissues of the 70s (except that they covered what the name labels constantly passed up) but compared to their murky sound any PD reissue label (FS above all) is the highest of fi any time. If you'd have been bugged by this sort of cash-in labels throughout you'd have had to throw a fit day in day out then. Or didn't you wise up until that much more recently? (Remember they were on the maket only a VERY scant few years before FS did their vinyl reissues, for example)

7 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

The Most compilation I bought was on Avid, which probably is as about PD a label as you can get. Thirty days in the stockade for me:

https://www.amazon.com/Classic-Albums-About-Musically-Amazing/dp/B06Y4325HM/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=sam+most&qid=1557164610&s=music&sr=1-1
 

Nobody's perfect. :lol:

Actually that 4-LP compilation was one I had my eyes on a couple of months ago too. But much as I like the two Sam Most Behtlehem LPs I have, a 50% hit rate only was too little for me in this case. WIth artists way more important to me I've once or twice gone below 50% on one of those budget "listening" sets but not there.

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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27 minutes ago, JSngry said:

The revolution WILL be televised, and we'll all be so glued to the set that THAT will be the revolution.

The transactional cynics continue to win.

The theme song will not be written by Jim Webb or Francis Scott Key
nor sung by Glen Campbell, Tom Jones, Johnny Cash
Englebert Humperdink, or the Rare Earth

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I’m not sure how long we need to continue this conversation (although far be it for me to say stop) but I think everything that can be said has been said. Some people don’t like what they do. Fine: don’t buy. Some do. Fine: we will continue to buy. FS performs a service. They put sessions unlikely to be reissued in your hands. They’re a middleman performing a function. I suppose I could try to go out and hunt down the Melba Liston session but buying is sometimes impulsive. You get a hankering for a disc and you want to get it relatively quick. That’s what happened to me; I was reading about her in the Dexter bio and decided I wanted to hear something. CDs are more convenient for me and cheaper than — in some cases — the LP option or finding people who will give me a burn. 

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Let’s not ignore the role that Amazon plays in all this.  As long as they widely offer all of these illegal releases, what we have to say about it means nothing.  It’s the new normal.

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9 minutes ago, Brad said:

I’m not sure how long we need to continue this conversation (although far be it for me to say stop) but I think everything that can be said has been said. Some people don’t like what they do. Fine: don’t buy. Some do. Fine: we will continue to buy. FS performs a service. They put sessions unlikely to be reissued in your hands. They’re a middleman performing a function. I suppose I could try to go out and hunt down the Melba Liston session but buying is sometimes impulsive. You get a hankering for a disc and you want to get it relatively quick. That’s what happened to me; I was reading about her in the Dexter bio and decided I wanted to hear something. CDs are more convenient for me and cheaper than — in some cases — the LP option or finding people who will give me a burn. 

+1  :tup

 

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13 minutes ago, mjzee said:

Let’s not ignore the role that Amazon plays in all this.  As long as they widely offer all of these illegal releases, what we have to say about it means nothing.  It’s the new normal.

They're not illegal in their domain of origin, and amazon sells them as imports. Grey area, perhaps, but my beef is not about the legality.

And/but - it's not just Amazon - for example - Half Price is FULL of all these half-ass PD inventories, it's disgusting. But people are buying the product, one has to assume. I have certainly pulled the odd item or two, but like pornography, I don't advocate normalizing the product even though I am not unfamiliar with it (although - never piad for). Would you want your son or daughter to be a porn star? Would you want them to be a Fresh Sounds CD? Would you buy porn from Jordi Pujol? Would you ask where he got the tapes? What if Jordi Pujol sold you some porn and your wife was in it, she apparently had a life before she met you, and it's PD now.

SURE!

Consumers are like citizens of a democracy - they get the results they deserve. And if they're willing to settle, hey.

 

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25 minutes ago, mjzee said:

Let’s not ignore the role that Amazon plays in all this.  As long as they widely offer all of these illegal releases, what we have to say about it means nothing.  It’s the new normal.

Please refine your statement. "Illegal" in the USA as per their PD laws and therefore on amazon.com, as it seems. Perfectly legal on European Amazon sites as per European PD laws as long as the contents are prior to mid-1962.

 

2 minutes ago, JSngry said:

 Would you buy porn from Jordi Pujol?

:lol:

You know what? I actually bought a "PORN BOOK" from Jordi Pujol.
https://www.freshsoundrecords.com/jordi-pujol-baulenas-albums/3890-jazz-en-barcelona-1920-1965.html?search_query=jazz+en+Barcelona&results=226

Complete with the porn soundtrack that goes with it:
https://www.freshsoundrecords.com/various-artists-albums/4359-jazz-en-barcelona-1925-1965-grabaciones-historicas-3-cd-boxset.html?search_query=jazz+en+Barcelona&results=226

:D

 

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55 minutes ago, JSngry said:

They're not illegal in their domain of origin, and amazon sells them as imports. Grey area, perhaps, but my beef is not about the legality.

And/but - it's not just Amazon - for example - Half Price is FULL of all these half-ass PD inventories, it's disgusting. But people are buying the product, one has to assume. I have certainly pulled the odd item or two, but like pornography, I don't advocate normalizing the product even though I am not unfamiliar with it (although - never piad for). Would you want your son or daughter to be a porn star? Would you want them to be a Fresh Sounds CD? Would you buy porn from Jordi Pujol? Would you ask where he got the tapes? What if Jordi Pujol sold you some porn and your wife was in it, she apparently had a life before she met you, and it's PD now.

SURE!

Consumers are like citizens of a democracy - they get the results they deserve. And if they're willing to settle, hey.

 

I wouldn't even want my daughter to be a Mosaic Box set, let alone a Fresh Sounds CD (thought it would have saved me a ton in dance classes and college tuition, even if she was a pricey Maynard Ferguson set).    And I would not buy porn from Jordi Pujol (or anyone else), but I would buy a Lenny McBrowne/Four Souls 2CD set from him.   And that is worth $18 more to me than making my own awful burns from youtube or whatever.  And I don't think that abstaining from buying that  from Jordi is going to convince Mosaic or Bear Family or BGO or Cherry Red or Demon/Edsel or Repertoire or whoever to do that set in my lifetime.

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Maybe build some sort of wall to keep out all these illegals...?

 

Unfair!

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18 minutes ago, felser said:

... And that is worth $18 more to me than making my own awful burns from youtube or whatever. 

Burns from YouTube?

Dude, if you think that's your best and/or only option, you need to file a personal negligence lawsuit against the internet.

8 minutes ago, David Ayers said:

Maybe build some sort of wall to keep out all these illegals...?

Talk about a sucker's game...walls that "keep out" can be at east as easily used to "keep in"!

s-l1000.jpg

Note the nameless Sean Young...

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The rights holder may have an action against Amazon and the labels but is it really worth it. We are not talking about a lot of sales and hiring a lawyer or using your own internal lawyers involves spending money for little reward. If we were talking about counterfeit iPhones or some other high volume product, that would be a different story: that’s real money. 

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2 minutes ago, Brad said:

The rights holder may have an action against Amazon and the labels but is it really worth it. We are not talking about a lot of sales and hiring a lawyer or using your own internal lawyers involves spending money for little reward. If we were talking about counterfeit iPhones or some other high volume product, that would be a different story: that’s real money. 

Would the American record company have to prove its own intention to make and sell the recordings which Amazon has illegally sold in the US?  Would the record company have to prove actual damages?

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6 minutes ago, GA Russell said:

Would the American record company have to prove its own intention to make and sell the recordings which Amazon has illegally sold in the US?  Would the record company have to prove actual damages?

In my opinion, no to the first but yes to the second, and the damages are probably low. That’s why it’s not worth the time. 

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6 minutes ago, GA Russell said:

Would the American record company have to prove its own intention to make and sell the recordings which Amazon has illegally sold in the US?  Would the record company have to prove actual damages?

I think the actual damages are the copyright infringements.  I guess a suit could force Amazon to cease and desist distributing the titles, and perhaps disgorgement of any profits made from the sales.  But let's be realistic: the companies that could sue Amazon are the same companies relying on Amazon to sell their (legitimate) products in the future.  What are the odds that they'd be willing to alienate Amazon and risk those future sales?

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The recent FS Guy Lafitte is fantastic.

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1 hour ago, mjzee said:

Wow. That's the type of dogshit diarrhea toilet paper that makes me puke even harder than does the mainstreaming of the acceptability of the Fresh Sounds model.

Now, having said that, that Enlightenment (talk about gaslighting...) label is ostensibly a British outfit. So, import. Can we establish that Amazon selling their product is in fact illegal, or are we just being interpretational about it? Can somebody cite a statute and/or court ruling?

Dusty Groove stopped selling new Fresh Sound product  for a while, maybe they still don't? They sure offer it used, though, which is fine by me, that's where it belongs.

https://www.dustygroove.com/search.php?sf=fresh+sound

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1 hour ago, mjzee said:

I think the actual damages are the copyright infringements.  I guess a suit could force Amazon to cease and desist distributing the titles, and perhaps disgorgement of any profits made from the sales.  But let's be realistic: the companies that could sue Amazon are the same companies relying on Amazon to sell their (legitimate) products in the future.  What are the odds that they'd be willing to alienate Amazon and risk those future sales?

Your first statement is not legally correct. The infringement is the violation of law, e.g., copyriight law, Lanham Act, etc. Your damages are the money you lost because of the legal violation. For example, if an iPhone costs $1,000 and a counterfeiter sells five iPhones, your damages are $5,000, the sales you lost. 

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Has it been established whether or not masterings are copyrightable?

Seems like that would be damn near impossible to prove in all but the most blatant cases, though, since software allows minimal tweaking that creates no real difference except in the waveform.

 

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Posted (edited)

27 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Has it been established whether or not masterings are copyrightable?

Seems like that would be damn near impossible to prove in all but the most blatant cases, though, since software allows minimal tweaking that creates no real difference except in the waveform.

 

Bear Family sued JSP for having stolen their Carter Family masterings and won:

http://www.indicare.org/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=98

 

Edited by J.A.W.

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35 minutes ago, Brad said:

Your first statement is not legally correct. The infringement is the violation of law, e.g., copyriight law, Lanham Act, etc. Your damages are the money you lost because of the legal violation. For example, if an iPhone costs $1,000 and a counterfeiter sells five iPhones, your damages are $5,000, the sales you lost. 

Except here Amazon is not the counterfeiter, merely a reseller.  The only profits they could disgorge are on the resale.  Admittedly, I am not an attorney, nor a legal expert.

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7 minutes ago, mjzee said:

Except here Amazon is not the counterfeiter, merely a reseller.  The only profits they could disgorge are on the resale.  Admittedly, I am not an attorney, nor a legal expert.

The sales of these recordings are probably low. That’s why they don’t take action, not to mention the real practical concern that they don’t want to anger Amazon. 

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42 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Has it been established whether or not masterings are copyrightable?

Seems like that would be damn near impossible to prove in all but the most blatant cases, though, since software allows minimal tweaking that creates no real difference except in the waveform.

 

Weirdly enough, my son who is now a lawyer but who used d to be a recording engineer  was talking abut that but I can't remember what he said.  Let me ask him.  

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6 minutes ago, medjuck said:

Weirdly enough, my son who is now a lawyer but who used d to be a recording engineer  was talking abut that but I can't remember what he said.  Let me ask him.  

See my post above re: Bear Family versus JSP.

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