scooter_phx

Trying to help out Mosaic by suggesting sets

541 posts in this topic

On 9/7/2020 at 2:06 AM, miles65 said:

A quick count: Decca/MGM 1941-1951 resulted in 159 titels plus 2 alternate takes. That would fit on 7 CD’s.

That matches my count as well. Would be cool to add the MGM stuff, but I'd go for just the Deccas!

 

 

 

gregmo

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Lionel Hampton and Lucky Thompson would be really good.  But most of all, some Don Byas mid-1940's would be my dream set.  That, and the Jimmy Giuffre Verve set.

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8 hours ago, Bol said:

Lionel Hampton and Lucky Thompson would be really good.  But most of all, some Don Byas mid-1940's would be my dream set.  That, and the Jimmy Giuffre Verve set.

+1 for a 40s Byas set - love his work

check this recent link re Byas 40s recordings   https://jazzlives.wordpress.com/2020/06/20/a-magical-session-in-jam-june-27-1945/

sadly the Thompson Mosaic Select was scuppered a few years back but a "big box" Lucky set would also be one of my dream releases

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16 hours ago, romualdo said:

+1 for a 40s Byas set - love his work

check this recent link re Byas 40s recordings   https://jazzlives.wordpress.com/2020/06/20/a-magical-session-in-jam-june-27-1945/

sadly the Thompson Mosaic Select was scuppered a few years back but a "big box" Lucky set would also be one of my dream releases

Yes, saw that article too, and that rekindled my desire for a 1940's set of Byas.  One can only fantasise.  

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On 11-9-2020 at 4:24 AM, romualdo said:

+1 for a 40s Byas set - love his work

check this recent link re Byas 40s recordings   https://jazzlives.wordpress.com/2020/06/20/a-magical-session-in-jam-june-27-1945/

sadly the Thompson Mosaic Select was scuppered a few years back but a "big box" Lucky set would also be one of my dream releases

I think I wrote this before. Don Byas 1944-1946 would certainly merrit a big Moasaic box but the sessions are divided over too many small to very small labels. Getting the rights would be a nightmare. From a list a made: He recorded 51 sessions leader and side man. Total 204 titles and 21 alt takes. Off course as a side man he did not take solo’s on all tracks. Labels include: Commodore, Savoy, American, Manor, Regis, Super Disc, Apollo, Jamboree, Guild etc.

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1 hour ago, miles65 said:

I think I wrote this before. Don Byas 1944-1946 would certainly merit a big Moasaic box but the sessions are divided over too many small to very small labels. Getting the rights would be a nightmare. From a list a made: He recorded 51 sessions leader and side man. Total 204 titles and 21 alt takes. Off course as a side man he did not take solo’s on all tracks. Labels include: Commodore, Savoy, American, Manor, Regis, Super Disc, Apollo, Jamboree, Guild etc.

But aren't many of these labels and sessions a classic case of labels that have REALLY become "orphaned" and where it would be pointless trying to negotiate "rights"?
Luckily, most of these mid-40s Don Byas sessions HAVE been reissued. E.g. I've owned the Jamboree recordings referred to above for a number of years on an LP on the French Black & Blue label from the 70s.
 

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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1 hour ago, Big Beat Steve said:

But aren't many of these labels and sessions a classic case of labels that have REALLY become "orphaned" and where it would be pointless trying to negotiate "rights"?
Luckily, most of these mid-40s Don Byas sessions HAVE been reissued. E.g. I've owned the Jamboree recordings referred to above for a number of years on an LP on the French Black & Blue label from the 70s.
 

Yes but there are big differences between EU, Canadian and US copyright laws. Years ago Uptown tracked down all owners of the small labels Charles Mingus recorded for in the 40’s to buy the rights to reissue them. So Mosaic should at least go through the motions of tracking down the current owners of labels like Jamboree.
I never heard of a blind trust the royalties could be payed to so that if those who are entitteled to the money can be payed when they make themselfs known.

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A lot of the Byas 40s stuff (both the American and European recordings) was issued on cd in Europe, by the Andorrans, I think. Mosaic has tended to shy away from reissuing material that has already been issued that way, even if it wasn't done all that well. That happened with the Hodges 60s Verve material that I talked about wanting Mosaic to do in this thread. It is too bad about Byas, because he is definitely one of the masters in need of some royal treatment.

 

 

 

gregmo

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2 hours ago, gmonahan said:

A lot of the Byas 40s stuff (both the American and European recordings) was issued on cd in Europe, by the Andorrans, I think. 

Yes!

The European sides with larger ensembles are split across several different discs.

 

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18 hours ago, gmonahan said:

A lot of the Byas 40s stuff (both the American and European recordings) was issued on cd in Europe, by the Andorrans, I think.

 

Not so. Most if not all of this up until the early 50s was reissued on the Chronological Classics label. Others may have covered that field too but probably as post-CC reissues.

Considering how this series has been held in the highest esteem here by many all the way for literally ages it is not approriate IMO to infer these are "shady" reissues.

Which BTW even if originally done by the "Andorrans" they would not be in such cases, given how the original indie labels in all likelihood shortchanged the artists and paid them not more than a flat fee and certainly had no royalty regime. So would there be any point in greasing the palms of the estates of Herman Lubinsky et al. (pretty much regardless of who became the "estate" through buy-ups in the meantime)?
An approach like that followed by Jonas Bernholm (of Route 66 fame) in the 80s of explicitly paying advance royalties to the featured artist/leader for the pressing run but deliberately circumventing the labels would have been more like it. (There were many documented cases where Bernholm's royalty payments were the first follow-up payments that the featured artists ever saw from their late 40s/early 50s releases ever since the records had originally been issued. Says a lot about the U.S. rights holders too, doesn't it? ;))

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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19 hours ago, gmonahan said:

A lot of the Byas 40s stuff (both the American and European recordings) was issued on cd in Europe, by the Andorrans, I think. Mosaic has tended to shy away from reissuing material that has already been issued that way, even if it wasn't done all that well. That happened with the Hodges 60s Verve material that I talked about wanting Mosaic to do in this thread. It is too bad about Byas, because he is definitely one of the masters in need of some royal treatment.

And see, that's why you don't buy that shit. You trade for it, you file-share it, you do all sorts of things do get to it, but you do not buy it, because once you actually buy it, you have monetized the item, and you have set the value at such a low point that it becomes difficult to add value for a further, beter quality product for an item for which the item is already minuscule. Take away the portion of the potential market that is going to be "satisfied" with a lesser product...if/when there can be a non-profit that can do justice to the music (and no, I don't expect to live that long, I mean, if JALC has all these deep pockets and has such a "genuine" interest in preserving the music's heritage and they don't even try...), this is what happens. The bar keeps going lower, not higher. At least not in the for-profit world.

George-Clinton-You-Shouldnt-Nuf-Bit-Fish

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Read and think again. These items were on the Chronological Classics label. So that label is all "bum" now too, according to what you still seem to consider your overruling standards for everyone out there? :blink: How come sooo many around here drooled so much about that label, then, lamenting the fact that CC never got around in their chronology to ALSO reissuing the recordings of this or that artist from that era?

 

 

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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CC was a very simple premise executed well - original records, not particularly remastered, no alternate takes, minimally annotated, and not exactly a cheap price point.

Plenty of ways to add value there, and enough incentivization to look at CC as a "starter set" - if there was a market that would create somebody like Mosaic to do it up "royally" (only with better teeth, I should hope)!

Although having said that, I only buy them second hand (or get them ripped), so as not to contribute to any possibly perceived slutting of the content. But still, that, to my mind, that's the correct application of PD - to keep content available without cheapening it, leaving room for the "royal treatment" to still be an attractive option if/when the time comes along.

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On 9/14/2020 at 9:17 AM, JSngry said:

CC was a very simple premise executed well - original records, not particularly remastered, no alternate takes, minimally annotated, and not exactly a cheap price point.

Plenty of ways to add value there, and enough incentivization to look at CC as a "starter set" - if there was a market that would create somebody like Mosaic to do it up "royally" (only with better teeth, I should hope)!

Although having said that, I only buy them second hand (or get them ripped), so as not to contribute to any possibly perceived slutting of the content. But still, that, to my mind, that's the correct application of PD - to keep content available without cheapening it, leaving room for the "royal treatment" to still be an attractive option if/when the time comes along.

Well, they're ALL out of print, so if you buy any of it, you're buying it used. I don't think any money any longer goes back to whichever label first issued it. I wasn't endorsing the Andorran stuff, by the way (DEEP breath Steve!), simply pointing out that Mosaic is disinclined to do sets that those labels have already done. Well, except for Classics. Mosaic has done a lot of things that Classics has issued. It would be kind of hard not to.

 

 

gregmo

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How about a bottom of the barrel set of unissued and/or unreissued Blue Note?  All the stuff that still exists up thru maybe Francis Wolf's death? 

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Hey, Classics weren't ALWAYS out of print, and yes, I am old enough to have had the chance to buy them all new. But didn't, I think? some i wish i had, because there's not been a lot of depreciation on them that I can see.

21 minutes ago, gmonahan said:

Well, except for Classics. Mosaic has done a lot of things that Classics has issued. It would be kind of hard not to.

I have to think that that's at least in part because, not just because of the artists, but also because Classics is a PD label that left room for genuine value to be added. PD is not really intended to be a money-grab #joudureejodoorahisNOTyourfriend

That's 3 becuases in a single sentence, so it must be true.

 

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