scooter_phx

Trying to help out Mosaic by suggesting sets

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This thread prompted me to pull out my Silver 'n' Wood LP and give it a spin.

I'm enjoying it! :tup 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, JSngry said:

The "embarrassing" lyrics are usually considered to be the "self-help" lyrics. Silver really, really believed in the notion of music as healing for the body, mind, and spirit. I myself don't find them embarrassing per se, but you could call the naïve (in the classic sense) and not be too far at all off the mark.

Fair enough.  For the unintiated, here is a sample: of said lyrics:


Permit me to introduce you to yourself 
I believe you two have never really met 
If you take a little time to get acquainted 
You can settle all your differences I bet 

The two of you are related don't you know 
Won't you both shake hands and meet on common ground 
Won't you make a slight attempt at understanding 
'Till a suitable arrangement can be found 

Now why are you always fighting with yourself 
There are ways that you can use to bridge the gap 
If you take a little interest in a science 
That will lead you down the road just like a map 

So why don't you call a meeting with yourself 
I believe you two would consequently find 
There's a meeting place where you can get together 
And you'll find it in the center of your mind 

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A bit more constructive than "please to meet you, won't you guess my name...."

 

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Coming back to CTI, BGO in the UK has been releasing double CD sets of these for years. These are among the most recent. Excellent sound.

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24 minutes ago, crisp said:

Coming back to CTI, BGO in the UK has been releasing double CD sets of these for years. These are among the most recent. Excellent sound.

BGO does a great job with those--I've picked up a few of the previous ones.  Guess I'd better prioritize any others that I want, if Sony's cutting off this sort of thing.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

A bit more constructive than "please to meet you, won't you guess my name...."

 

It depends to what the singers are offering...:crazy:

Edited by porcy62

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• Bill Barron on Savoy

• Bill Dixon-produced Savoy sessions

• Sam Rivers trio recordings (any/all)
 

... but these sets are likely too niche for Mosaic. Barron's Motivation in particular seems destined for oblivion.

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Grab it while it's there!

 

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I'd buy a Mosaic set of Silver's Silveto albums in a heartbeat. The only Silver mising in my collection.

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but also

I think it's all relevant, but ok.

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3 hours ago, mikeweil said:

I'd buy a Mosaic set of Silver's Silveto albums in a heartbeat. The only Silver mising in my collection.

You just need a copy of Spiritualizing the Senses (instrumental with Eddie Harris and Ralph Moore) and the archival releases on the label. The rest of the new material is awful. 

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How about a Henry Threadgill odds & ends:

80° Below '82 (Air)

Subject to Change (Sextet)

Live at Koncepts (Very Very Circus)

Too Much Sugar for a Dime (Very Very Circus)

Pop Stop the Tape, Stop (Zooid)

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9 hours ago, Late said:

• Bill Barron on Savoy

• Bill Dixon-produced Savoy sessions

• Sam Rivers trio recordings (any/all)
 

... but these sets are likely too niche for Mosaic. Barron's Motivation in particular seems destined for oblivion.

I'd buy a Bill Barron set, no question.  Gotta do my homework and figure out what the "Bill Dixon-produced Savoy sessions" are (no idea, I've gotta confess).  And I'm sure I'd buy any/all Sam Rivers that Mosaic would want to reissue.

That said, I have to say that those Sam Rivers Florida Big Band sessions have to be one of the MOST important things Mosaic ever released -- and some of the finest music Sam Rivers EVER wrote/recorded/produced/gave-birth-to.  That Florida Big Band was FIERCE.  God damn, as fierce as ANY large-ensemble ever recorded.  And, frankly, as good as ANY large-ensemble that Sam EVER assembled.  I'd take his Florida Big Band over those earlier French RCA "All Star" band recordings, any day of the week, and any hour of any day of said week.

OMG, I've said it before, but those Rivers Florida big band recordings sound like Arnold Schoenberg writing for big band, but with James Brown's rhythm section.

I'm sure there's no treasure trove like that just waiting to be issued for the very first time (like that Rivers 'Select'), but thank goodness MC had the good sense to make that happen, even if it was outside the squares.  I think(????) that may have been the only(????) essentially contemporaneous (less than a decade old) set of brand new recordings ever(?) released in the entire history of the Mosaic label.  Is that right? - or am I forgetting something else even remotely similar?

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Bill Dixon-produced Savoy sessions are:

Archie Shepp/Bill Dixon Quartet (Shepp, Dixon, Workman, Moore, Cohen, McRae)

Bill Dixon 7-tette/The New York Contemporary Five (split LP) (Dixon, McIntyre, Barrow, H. Johnson, Izenzon, Dodson, McRae) (Shepp, Tchicai, Cherry, Curson, Boykins, Murray)

Marc Levin "The Dragon Suite" (Levin, Gwangwa, C. Scott, McBee, F. Clayton)

Ed Curran Quartet "Elysa" (Curran, Levin, Tokunaga, Pozar)

Robert F. Pozar Ensemble "Good Golly Miss Nancy" (Zwerin, C. Norris, Garrison, Pozar)

Marzette Watts Ensemble (Watts, M. Cook, Tintweiss, C. Jeffries, Booth, Berge, Moses, Sheffer, P. Waters, B. Few, Kipers, Turner)

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14 hours ago, kh1958 said:

You just need a copy of Spiritualizing the Senses (instrumental with Eddie Harris and Ralph Moore) and the archival releases on the label. The rest of the new material is awful. 

I don't think it's awful, not at all. It's just weird. But it's where Silver was at, the whole self-help thing. He had some money, Blue Note had folded, and he saw silveto as a way to get his message out unfiltered, another variety of Self-Determination Music.

The main problem I have with them is not the vocals themselves as much as it is the recording/mixing of them. If anything can be called "awful" about this body of work, that's it.

The Silveto material also contrasts pretty sharply with the 70s BNs. On those, he was still growing, stretching his forms and harmonies. Then the Silveto stuff was a pretty obvious "pullback", seemingly to place the focus on the lyrics. I do think that silver saw himself as a self-help guru of sorts, and these were his "self-help books".

From anybody else, somebody with no back story, yeah, wow, who cares, etc. But this is Horace Silver, who does have a backstory, a pretty significant one. I don't think Mosaic would touch the silveto stuff (and they'll no doubt have some kind of a logistical excuse for not touching the Silver 'n ___ series), but if you want to understand the arc of the man's music, this is a body of work that needs to be examined. There was both precedent and antecedent for it. I don't think it was an anomaly as much as it was s full frontal look at what was really going on inside the guy's psyche. Too bad he never learned how to get singers recorded well.

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I think we'll have to agree to disagree Jim and I strongly suspect you're in a very small minority that the lyrics he was writing were anything but awful. It was his thing, he was serious about it, I understand that but as something to listen to and care about or savor?  It was basically a vanity thing - as you say he had some money and could put out what he wanted - but did many people buy?

His 70s things at least fit with the times by the 80s ... not so much.

You can write the greatest stuff of your career, covered up by inane lyrics, how does one separate out one from the other? I would argue that it is damn hard to appreciate the music unless you are also appreciating the lyrics, which most of us do not.

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Make no mistake, I think the lyrics are goofy. but it's not the subject matter, it's their...basicness. There's nothing wrong with or about them, but they're just not really, uh, "wise". They're more like a 10 year old talking to a 5 year old. Only the 10 year old writes really hip tunes.

I will give him credit for this, though - he wanted to write lyrics about things other than sex, romance, and transient pleasures. And even before The United States Of Mind series, the liner notes to his records dropped hints that this was his mindset and had been for a while. I do appreciate what he thought he was trying to do. And it DID fit in with the times, the whole "new age" thing. Only he did it with his musical foundations, not some fairydronetrancemusic.

On the other hand - I want every fan of "classic" Horace Silver to look back at all the songs he wrote that had two word titles that either rhymed or was based on jargon and tell me that you're surprised that the guy wrote lyrics like these. There's a strain of, I don't want to call it infantilism, but there's some kind of an indicator there that Silver's mind worked in a vein that was as simple as it was serious. In other words, if you take something like "Filthy McNasty" or "Psychedelic Sally" at face value as music, you can't say you weren't warned about what kind of lyrics were likely to be coming down the pike...

Just saying - the guy who wrote "Moon Rays" and "Enchantment"...that guy kinda faded away with time. He had other priorities.

As for appreciating the music apart from the lyrics, geez, you're talking to somebody who spend years listening to Top 40 radio and knowing all the melodies, all the parts, and, apart from the hook, only about 1% of the words. so yeah, I can do that. It takes a special effort for me to focus on lyrics, it's something I had to consciously develop. Even on a Sinatra tune, I'll hear the melody, the phrasing, and even the vowel sounds and not immediately turn them into real lyrics.

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Another suggestion for Mosaic:

Oregon - The Complete Vanguard Recordings.

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1 hour ago, mjzee said:

Another suggestion for Mosaic:

Oregon - The Complete Vanguard Recordings.

Great idea, but it will never happen.  Well outside their wheelhouses (both Blue Note and BingleRosey).

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Open to Vanguard in general, though. Where's the ownership now?

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1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Open to Vanguard in general, though. Where's the ownership now?

Concord, I believe.  Where good catalogue goes to die.  Although we might get a special "Oregon Plays for Lovers" 34-minute CD next Valentines day.  

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9 hours ago, JSngry said:

...

On the other hand - I want every fan of "classic" Horace Silver to look back at all the songs he wrote that had two word titles that either rhymed or was based on jargon and tell me that you're surprised that the guy wrote lyrics like these. There's a strain of, I don't want to call it infantilism, but there's some kind of an indicator there that Silver's mind worked in a vein that was as simple as it was serious. In other words, if you take something like "Filthy McNasty" or "Psychedelic Sally" at face value as music, you can't say you weren't warned about what kind of lyrics were likely to be coming down the pike...

...

Gotta agree on this. Horace's "ghastly lyrics" I referred to far above for Tokyo Blues rhymed "sake" and "sukiyaki". I found them painful to listen to (maybe even politically incorrect by modern standards...let's not go there), but they did fit well with the tune in a perverse way. Same thing can be said for Silver's other lyrics on the disc I heard.

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Yeah, if you really love Horace Silver (and I do), you gotta deal with this...uh "sophisticated simplisticism" of his. It's a very real part of who he was and what he did.

There's this:

That's some baaaad shit right there, for real. At any level.

and then there's this:

Hell yeah.

But then there's this, which is really no different in intent, it's just a whole lot more weird:

And ok, anybody check out his last project, Rockin' With Rachmaninoff? https://www.allmusic.com/album/rockin-with-rachmaninoff-mw0000692770

...originally conceived as a stage musical, complete with singers, dancers, musicians, and a narrator to tell the story of the composer's idea of Duke Ellington introducing Sergei Rachmaninoff to all the jazz greats in heaven

So yeah, Horace Silver had thoughts about death, spirits, health, and....musicals combining, maybe, all of that.

I get that the majority of the Silveto output is not particularly "hip" for "jazz fans". But I'm not sure that it was supposed to be. I mean, check it out, if Horace had a church like Al Green did and put this out, people would be all like, yeah, you gotta go to church at Horace Silver's, they really be getting that spirit!

And quite apart from that, EDDIE HARRIS!!!!

And this is what bugs me about music fans/industry in general, Black Music in particular, people just want the good stuff - as they hear it. - and then put everything else on the rubbish heap There's not a whole helluva lot of attention paid to the people and the lives past the records, and there's definitely not a lot of interest in confronting works that "fail" by some criteria. My take is that Horace Silver was a guy who left a mark in music, and he was not a sterotypical "jazz musician" in origin, music, business, and, especially, life.

This is not about "liking" this music as much as it is knowing it and considering it as part of the man's life. It was not cheap or trivialized in any fashion. It does not deserve adulation, but it does deserve respect.

I mean, the man cared about our ulcers and migraines, sincerely cared. That's more than I can say about myself!

And yeah, pretty sure that if any band played these tunes with no lyrics, people would be going hey, Horace Silver, the hardbop grandpop, yeah!

Becuase, you know, people are so hip about shit like that.

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1 hour ago, JSngry said:

And this is what bugs me about music fans/industry in general, Black Music in particular, people just want the good stuff - as they hear it. - and then put everything else on the rubbish heap There's not a whole helluva lot of attention paid to the people and the lives past the records, and there's definitely not a lot of interest in confronting works that "fail" by some criteria. My take is that Horace Silver was a guy who left a mark in music, and he was not a sterotypical "jazz musician" in origin, music, business, and, especially, life.

This is not about "liking" this music as much as it is knowing it and considering it as part of the man's life. It was not cheap or trivialized in any fashion. It does not deserve adulation, but it does deserve respect.

I hear you, but we are dealing with finite time and money as far as listening goes.  If I'm really really into someone's work, I want to hear their relative "failures" to a point.  If I just appreciate their successes, then I probably just want to hear those successes and move on to someone else's successes before I die.  Silver was out there for over 50 years.  Apart from Duke Ellington, I can't think of anyone whose work stayed vital for 50 years in jazz.  Right or wrong, I tend to look at musician's careers/legacy's in arcs.  I am interested in the upward arc at the beginning, but not as interested in the downward arc at the end past a cutoff point.  Sometimes someone like a Neil Young (ca. 'Freedom' in 1989) ends up utterly defying that model, but for the most part, I find it holds.  The contours of the arc can be different (quoting Young again, they can burn out or fade away), but still tends to be visible as an arc.   I realize some of that is my innate system architect mindset trying to fit messy reality into a coherent model, but for me, there tends to be a lot of legitimacy in it experientially.  And for me, Silver's arc dipped below the surface with those "Silver 'n" albums.  Though I imagine he could still bring it live.  The later Columbia's and Impulse's were fine, but didn't really do anything for me the way the Blue Notes did.  No magic in them for me, a lot of expert been-there-done-that-and-I-can-do-it-again by some very polished pros.

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