paul secor Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/08/nyregion/thelonius-monk-charlier-parker.html Interesting article, and there are photos in the online version that weren't included in the print version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 Awesome! Too bad there is no recording of that historic evening. Though I chuckle at the line where the author postulated that perhaps Bird had his cabaret license pulled due to drug issues. Yeah, you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 You beat me to posting the article. Interesting little article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 Bird never took a bust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted March 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 16 minutes ago, JSngry said: Bird never took a bust. That's my understanding too. Never read that he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 (edited) Yeah Bird was banned from Birdland for his "personal issues" but he never got busted or lost his cabaret card. I don't think there's any point to taking what a NYT writer says about the music - to say their fact checking is spotty is too kind - but could it possibly be that a cop could pull a cabaret card without an actual bust? That doesn't sound right and I always figured that Bird's out of town gigs was a function of going where he hadn't burned bridges. If he wasn't getting gigs due to unreliability in NYC, go to Boston or DC when he could ... Edited March 10, 2019 by Dan Gould Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 (edited) https://jazztimes.com/columns/the-gig/the-cabaret-card-and-jazz/ “Among the many curios in jazz’s epistolary record is a letter from Charlie Parker to the New York Liquor Control Board, dated Feb. 17, 1953. “My right to pursue my chosen profession has been taken away, and my wife and three children who are innocent of any wrongdoing are suffering,” Parker writes. ” … I feel sure that when you examine my record and see that I have made a sincere effort to become a family man and a good citizen, you will reconsider. If by any chance you feel I haven’t paid my debt to society, by all means let me do so and give me and my family back the right to live.” https://www.local802afm.org/allegro/articles/a-brief-history-of-new-york-citys-cabaret-laws/ “Charlie Parker, Billie Holiday, and many other famous performers seeking a narcotic muse fell victim to the cabaret card law, but consider too, how many talents were rendered obscure or snuffed out entirely by the law’s Draconian demands.” That’s three sources, not to mention a letter from Bird himself. Can we at least put that part to rest? Edited March 10, 2019 by Scott Dolan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 "Bird never got busted" is part of The Lore. All I can find on some sites is that is that Bird was "arrested" for heroin possession in 1951. Never formerly charged/indicted/etc. Definitely never went to court over it. There's this: https://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/unbound/jazz/dbird.htm Despite his drawing power, nightclub owners gradually became reluctant to book him, for fear that he would show up in no shape to perform or not show up at all. At one point he was banned from Birdland, the Broadway nightclub that had been named in his honor in 1950. Although he somehow eluded arrest for possession, the cabaret card he needed in order to perform in New York City nightclubs was taken from him without due process, at the recommendation of the narcotics squad, in 1951. I can't find any hard proof, any "origin story" for Bird ever actually having been arrested. As much sensation there was around him (we all know about him pissing in that phone booth), that seems odd. It seems more likely that there was some sort of incident, likely (but by no means certainly) involving narcotics (actual or circumstantial), enough to get his card revoked. But there's no record of an actual arrest, and definitely not one of anything that would usually follow an arrest. I see some articles saying "arrested in 1951 for heroin possession" but nothing backs that up as an actual historical event. More likely, it seems an example of sloppy thinking that, ok, Bird lost his card in 1951, that means he was arrested for heroin. No, it does not meant that. At all. Which is why the writer phrased it thusly: For reasons unclear, possibly drug- related, Parker had his cabaret license pulled. For reasons unclear, possibly drug related. That means there's no definite answer. It might have been an actual possession incident, or it could have just as easily have been Bird pissed off the wrong guy (Morris Levy????????) and got set up. Bird was a junkie, the cops were corrupt, and the whole cabaret card system was an excuse for shake downs. "At the recommendation of the narcotics squad"....you know, in real-world terms, that could mean any damn thing, as could "drug-related". On a somewhat musically-related note, the 1953 Bird Open Door recordings are some of the best Bird ever: https://www.discogs.com/Charlie-Parker-At-The-Open-Door/release/10622622 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted March 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 6 hours ago, JSngry said: "Bird never got busted" is part of The Lore. All I can find on some sites is that is that Bird was "arrested" for heroin possession in 1951. Never formerly charged/indicted/etc. Definitely never went to court over it. There's this: https://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/unbound/jazz/dbird.htm Despite his drawing power, nightclub owners gradually became reluctant to book him, for fear that he would show up in no shape to perform or not show up at all. At one point he was banned from Birdland, the Broadway nightclub that had been named in his honor in 1950. Although he somehow eluded arrest for possession, the cabaret card he needed in order to perform in New York City nightclubs was taken from him without due process, at the recommendation of the narcotics squad, in 1951. I can't find any hard proof, any "origin story" for Bird ever actually having been arrested. As much sensation there was around him (we all know about him pissing in that phone booth), that seems odd. It seems more likely that there was some sort of incident, likely (but by no means certainly) involving narcotics (actual or circumstantial), enough to get his card revoked. But there's no record of an actual arrest, and definitely not one of anything that would usually follow an arrest. I see some articles saying "arrested in 1951 for heroin possession" but nothing backs that up as an actual historical event. More likely, it seems an example of sloppy thinking that, ok, Bird lost his card in 1951, that means he was arrested for heroin. No, it does not meant that. At all. Which is why the writer phrased it thusly: For reasons unclear, possibly drug- related, Parker had his cabaret license pulled. For reasons unclear, possibly drug related. That means there's no definite answer. It might have been an actual possession incident, or it could have just as easily have been Bird pissed off the wrong guy (Morris Levy????????) and got set up. Bird was a junkie, the cops were corrupt, and the whole cabaret card system was an excuse for shake downs. "At the recommendation of the narcotics squad"....you know, in real-world terms, that could mean any damn thing, as could "drug-related". On a somewhat musically-related note, the 1953 Bird Open Door recordings are some of the best Bird ever: https://www.discogs.com/Charlie-Parker-At-The-Open-Door/release/10622622 Agree on your main point - and definitely agree on the Open Door recordings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 49 minutes ago, paul secor said: Agree on your main point - and definitely agree on the Open Door recordings. So you think the letter quoted is a fabrication? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted March 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 Does the letter say that he was convicted of a crime? Or even indicted for a crime? I think that was Jim's point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 1 hour ago, paul secor said: Agree on your main point - and definitely agree on the Open Door recordings. I hope so because I just ordered them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted March 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 Just now, Dan Gould said: I hope so because I just ordered them. I'm sure that you won't be disappointed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 3 minutes ago, paul secor said: Does the letter say that he was convicted of a crime? Or even indicted for a crime? I think that was Jim's point. Yeah, no question that he had lost his card. But how/why, geez, possibilities are endless. Bird got banned from Birdland, Morris Levy owned Birdland. Bird was a junkie, Levy was a stone gangster. You do the math. Just saying, I can't find any real evidence of an actual arrest. Oh, and as far as possibilities...the hypothetical of a gangster jazz-businessman such as Morris Levy using a corrupt legal process to attempt a hostile takeover of an unsteady talent''s career to God knows what end (s)...let it be noted at this point that Norman Granz kept the records and JATP work available for Bird, and then let's wonder if Granz was extending life support to Bird, taking advantage of his situation to get Bird to make those crossover-y record, some of both, all of neither, or what. Hell, maybe this whole thing was a Levy vs Granz thing. Or maybe not. No matter, maybe Roy Haynes knows the real story. All I know is that I still see no evidence of an actual arrest having occurred. Past that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 23 minutes ago, Dan Gould said: I hope so because I just ordered them. They're not hi-fi, ok? Just so you know. But, what was that record...Bird is free on these sessoons. Bird is very free. 1953 saw some great Bird performances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted March 11, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 (edited) It's a given that no matter what the sound quality is on Bird's recordings, HIS sound always comes through loud and clear - especially clear. Edited March 11, 2019 by paul secor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 With records going that far back, it's hard to conclude whether he was arrested or not. It's possible that after a certain amount of time, arrest records of that type would be destroyed under a record retention policy. In addition, records do get lost over time. At the company I worked at for over 30 years, certain records could not be found, even though we were careful about maintaining records. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 9 hours ago, paul secor said: Does the letter say that he was convicted of a crime? Or even indicted for a crime? I think that was Jim's point. ?????? No, but it makes it perfectly clear that his cabaret card had been taken away. Are you of the mind that it was for repeated parking violations?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 And just to clarify, I never once said that he was convicted of a crime. But chances are better than fair that local authorities had had enough of his bullshit and decided to hit him in the wallet. And if you honestly don't think it was drug related, then we must be talking about two different Charlie Parkers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 43 minutes ago, Scott Dolan said: And just to clarify, I never once said that he was convicted of a crime. But chances are better than fair that local authorities had had enough of his bullshit and decided to hit him in the wallet. There you go. No documented offense, no due process, no nothing except "we're tired of your bullshit" (whoever "we" were, and please don't think it had to be limited to law enforcement) and BAM! there goes your card. And sure, I have no doubt that the actual technical grounds for revoking the card was "drug-related", but I cannot rule out that what motivated the revocation might have been something else. Everybody knew Bird as an addict, and Birdland itself was notorious in its earlier days for being a place for junkies to play (cf Billy Taylor's remembrances of feeling a draft for not participating the in the "pool" backstage at Birdland, where the performers would all put in funds to get their score for the evening). Somebody was keeping all that action safe, if not Morris Levy, then somebody who reported to him. The system itself was ready-made to be a tool of corruption, extortion, and leverage. Keep all that in mind when trying to figure out why Bird got his card pulled without due process, and for reasons still unknown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, JSngry said: And sure, I have no doubt that the actual technical grounds for revoking the card was "drug-related" If ever there were a perfect example of why your convoluted bullshit cannot be taken seriously, this is it. Exactly what I implied, but fuck agreeing with it until the next day, after you twisted and writhed and presented dime store philosophies and ruminated and all the other garbage you engage in, when “that’s my thought as well” would have sufficed. Edited March 11, 2019 by Scott Dolan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 Tough Monday, eh? I feel you on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 Great Monday! My days are not affected by people online with histrionic personality disorders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 Thank god for that, that would be tough! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 I think I have the Open Door recordings CD, but haven´t listened to it recently. Maybe the reason is the other musicians are cut out. I love everything Bird did, but prefer those life recordings, where you hear the others too. The famous photo of Bird with Monk, Mingus and Haynes I think is also the cover photo of my edition of Ross Russel´s book about Bird. I also have an old book from Robert Reisner "Bird" with many interviews from fellow musicians etc., and it also has a photo of Bird with Monk, but from another occasion. The recorded studio album Bird and Diz also with Monk is another high light in Bird´s discography, the only annyoing thing is the silly liner notes where NG (I think he was it) wrote about Monk "a lesser light in modern jazz, but nevertheless an important one......" Another interesting aspect is, that Mingus and Monk never recorded together. One of Mingus´ sons had thought there is an album "Mingus,Duke, Monk" which might be impossible (Duke,Mingus,Roach of course), and you can read this error in Sue Mingus´ book "Tonight at Noon", where she pointed out that error and stated correctly that Mingus and Monk never recorded together. But Bob Parent´s photo always gave me the impressions that I would have wished to hear what they played...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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