AllenLowe

FInal Call for Pre-orders: Turn Me Loose White Man:

89 posts in this topic

19 minutes ago, JSngry said:

No, it's not only ever leveled at white men. It's leveled at "white culture" in general, male and female alike. And if you ever want to stop the idiocy, I think you have to begin by acknowledging the point that the world (and as much of the world as has been available) economy of the last several centuries has indeed been structured in a way that benefits (and to sustain that benefit) "white people" first, sometimes intentionally, sometimes inadvertently, but still, always..

This I agree with. If cultural appropriation has any legitimacy left, it's on the very large scale. Hopefully it had some legitimacy when I used it in my masters thesis 25 years ago. I examined the 17th/18th century French natural historians who travelled to the Levant Louis XIV's patronage and came back to write books in which they claimed that the modern Greeks were so far devolved from their classical forebears that the better educated French were the true descendants of the ancient Greeks. Then the French proceeded to steal all the monuments they could from the Levant. That's cultural appropriation. 

Now it seems to me that a white academic compiling a canon of--what is it, 36 CDs?--of black music and instructing us on how to listen to black music is about as perfect an example of cultural appropriation as I can think of.

If you want to talk about how black musicians have been ripped off, then do it in economic terms. Don't use squishy concepts like cultural appropriation.

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16 hours ago, Captain Howdy said:

Does that describe the minstrels? Pat Boone? Rock & roll in general? The relationships b/w black and white music in the US deserves to be examined; I just don't think the concept of "cultural appropriation" has any value. It's a loaded term, a term of abuse, implying theft and it's only ever leveled at white men. You'll never see Ray Charles accused of cultural appropriation for Modern Sounds in Country and Western Music. 

I do think Allen Lowe is one who is historically aware of all the stylistic cross-pollination that went on from the beginning of recorded music and has valid things to say about all the infuences that went BOTH ways without romanticizing things. And personally I don't think he will accuse anybody of anything from the "cultural appopriation" angle so much in vogue these days in certain quarters. So I dont' really know what you are getting at. Don't you realize that in your ranting you don't even see who your (purported) opponent is and who is not?

I agree with your statement above and this is one reason why I find exploring all this history of cross-pollination (some might say "crossover" before there was the term) highly fascinating. And this is part of the muiscal history that is TOTALLY different from all the "cover version" and bowdlerized white POP versions too. But again - influences e.g. between black and white "niche" music (i.e NON-pop) pre-war and early post-war went BOTH ways in many, many directions. I have no idea what your exact musical tastes are but just as one little example, let's assume you are familiar with Wynonie Harris' hits "Bloodshot Eyes" and "Good Morning Judge". Would you know offhand too that NEITHER of the two was a Harris original (or one written specifically for him) but in fact Harris COVERS of COUNTRY songs recorded before? "Cultural appropriation"? Ha!

I short, calm down and let the "cultural appropriation" agitators agitate as much as they like. After all, what was the saying about the caravan moving on again? ;) What does it matter to those of us who are aware of BOTH sides of the (musical) coin and give credit where credit is due to the ORIGINATORS (which admittedly is something the covers churned out by Pat Boone and his ilk did not - but who wants Pat Boone anyway?).

15 hours ago, Captain Howdy said:

Now it seems to me that a white academic compiling a canon of--what is it, 36 CDs?--of black music and instructing us on how to listen to black music is about as perfect an example of cultural appropriation as I can think of.

Did you check the track listings close enough, I wonder? THere are PLENTY of tunes by WHITE artists there, and as far as I can tell with my spotty knowledge of 20s music both black and white, I'd say this just shows EXACTLY this cross-pollination that went on even way back then.

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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That's really quite the set; not to figure out if I actually have money for it.

I noticed Vol. 14 has the titles in alphabetical order.  Curatorial humor?

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10 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

I do think Allen Lowe is one who is historically aware of all the stylistic cross-pollination that went on from the beginning of recorded music and has valid things to say about all the infuences that went BOTH ways without romanticizing things. And personally I don't think he will accuse anybody of anything from the "cultural appopriation" angle so much in vogue these days in certain quarters. So I dont' really know what you are getting at. Don't you realize that in your ranting you don't even see who your (purported) opponent is and who is not?

I understand that I'm the outsider here and everyone else seems to know and respect Allen, and I've no doubt he's forgotten more than I'll ever know about music. And I agree with you when you say you don't think he will accuse anybody of anything from the "cultural appopriation" angle so much in vogue these days in certain quarters." My point has always been that "cultural appopriation" has become such a joke that it no longer has any academic value. https://www.teenvogue.com/story/kardashian-jenners-cultural-appropriation-hair

10 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

I agree with your statement above and this is one reason why I find exploring all this history of cross-pollination (some might say "crossover" before there was the term) highly fascinating. And this is part of the muiscal history that is TOTALLY different from all the "cover version" and bowdlerized white POP versions too. But again - influences e.g. between black and white "niche" music (i.e NON-pop) pre-war and early post-war went BOTH ways in many, many directions. I have no idea what your exact musical tastes are but just as one little example, let's assume you are familiar with Wynonie Harris' hits "Bloodshot Eyes" and "Good Morning Judge". Would you know offhand too that NEITHER of the two was a Harris original (or one written specifically for him) but in fact Harris COVERS of COUNTRY songs recorded before? "Cultural appropriation"? Ha!

Those might not be the best examples, since Wynonie probably never heard those songs until Syd Nathan presented them to him. Syd liked to reuse songs whose copyrights he owned. Again, I too find the "history of cross-pollination" fascinating. Just don't call it "cultural appropriation".

10 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

I short, calm down and let the "cultural appropriation" agitators agitate as much as they like. 

Here I disagree, and strongly. If you're not willing to stand up for free speech you're going to lose it. 

10 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Did you check the track listings close enough, I wonder? THere are PLENTY of tunes by WHITE artists there, and as far as I can tell with my spotty knowledge of 20s music both black and white, I'd say this just shows EXACTLY this cross-pollination that went on even way back then.

No, I confess didn't, but the title is Turn Me Loose White Man.

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46 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

I understand that I'm the outsider here and everyone else seems to know and respect Allen, and I've no doubt he's forgotten more than I'll ever know about music. And I agree with you when you say you don't think he will accuse anybody of anything from the "cultural appopriation" angle so much in vogue these days in certain quarters." My point has always been that "cultural appopriation" has become such a joke that it no longer has any academic value. https://www.teenvogue.com/story/kardashian-jenners-cultural-appropriation-hair

Those might not be the best examples, since Wynonie probably never heard those songs until Syd Nathan presented them to him. Syd liked to reuse songs whose copyrights he owned. Again, I too find the "history of cross-pollination" fascinating. Just don't call it "cultural appropriation".

Here I disagree, and strongly. If you're not willing to stand up for free speech you're going to lose it. 

No, I confess didn't, but the title is Turn Me Loose White Man.

Seriously, I think your avatar affects the way people perceive you.  

As to the topic here: I think everyone should compare  the Will Bradley Trio's version of Down the Road Apiece with Amos Wilburn's and Chuck Berry's and guess who wrote it and which came first. 

Edited by medjuck

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51 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

Here I disagree, and strongly. If you're not willing to stand up for free speech you're going to lose it.

That "free speech" thing works in some funny ways sometimes...

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1 hour ago, medjuck said:

As to the topic here: I think everyone should compare  the Will Bradley Trio's version of Down the Road Apiece with Amos Wilburn's and Chuck Berry's and guess who wrote it and which came first. 

And how do we decide what color a song is? By the race of its author? By the race of the first artist to record it? By the race of the artist who made it popular? This is why cultural appropriation is useless as a tool for examining music history. If you write a careful and perceptive examination of the exchange between musical genres over time and then call it "cultural appropriation" you have immediately reduced your thesis to "white people stealing from black people." 

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

That "free speech" thing works in some funny ways sometimes...

As the man in charge of deleting posts you have hopefully given it a lot of thought.

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It's only "stealing" once it gets monetized and commoditized. Until then, it's just love doing what love do.

6 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

As the man in charge of deleting posts you have hopefully given it a lot of thought.

Oh, I'd gave it a lot of thought long before I was given the power to delete posts.

One thing I noticed was that "free speech" always seems to be a lot freer when it's being spoken from power than to it, especially when it's a demand/request to sit down and STFU.

Like I said, funny ways sometimes.

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1 hour ago, JSngry said:

It's only "stealing" once it gets monetized and commoditized. Until then, it's just love doing what love do.

What belongs to no one can't be stolen. 

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8 hours ago, Captain Howdy said:

What belongs to no one can't be stolen. 

But what gets sold certainly does have at least a claimed owner, and that process can arouse at least the aura of a theft.

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Volumes 1 & 2 are certainly early. What kind of recording techniques were employed then and how do they sound?

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12 hours ago, Hot Ptah said:

Do you have a copy left for me to buy Allen?

yes - no problem.


Well, I had no idea that this had blown up like it has. I am a bit under the weather these days, so don't have a lot of energy to respond; however, I will say:

 

1) I am amused at being called an academic. I have been excluded from my attempts to get access to that world for many, many years. I have gotten in some major trouble as well for my detailed criticisms of academics and academia in the past. I think academia has been the near-ruination of the study of American music. I am completely unaffiliated and have always worked without any institutional support.

2) The sound is rough on this collection, especially, of course, the early years. I did my best, as all materials are from my own collection.

3) The phrase 'turn me loose white man' comes from an early minstrel song as sung by two white men; the title of the book has to do with the ambiguity and outright strangeness  of a white man, imitating a black man within a form that was certainly a matter of cultural theft and subterfuge - though hidden in plain sight -   seeming to ask for freedom of expression.

4) I use the phrase 'cultural appropriation' with intended irony.  I think the whole idea has become just another socio-speak cliche.

 

 

 

 

Edited by AllenLowe

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I support Allen. 

 

It seems that people who habitually mock others for having their “trigger points” often have trigger points of their own, so the mere use of the word appropriation creates a fire storm in their minds. No room for irony. Delicate souls. 

 

Carry on, Allen.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, David Ayers said:

Carry on, Allen.

This.

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On 9/22/2019 at 10:43 AM, JSngry said:

But what gets sold certainly does have at least a claimed owner, and that process can arouse at least the aura of a theft.

White guy Gene Lees, quoting Dizzy (Ithink it was...)

Image result for gene lees you can't steal a gift

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3 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

1) I am amused at being called an academic. I have been excluded from my attempts to get access to that world for many, many years. I have gotten in some major trouble as well for my detailed criticisms of academics and academia in the past. I think academia has been the near-ruination of the study of American music. I am completely unaffiliated and have always worked without any institutional support.

 

I think this all speaks VERY much for you. ;)

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13 minutes ago, Ted O'Reilly said:

White guy Gene Lees, quoting Dizzy (Ithink it was...)

Image result for gene lees you can't steal a gift

Well, kumbayah and all that, but if something is sold, that pretty much disqualifies it from being a gift, right?

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6 hours ago, David Ayers said:

I support Allen. 

 

It seems that people who habitually mock others for having their “trigger points” often have trigger points of their own, so the mere use of the word appropriation creates a fire storm in their minds. No room for irony. Delicate souls. 

 

Carry on, Allen.

Every day I see the term used dozens of times and I'm supposed to figure out which one is being used ironically? I don't think so. That's like wearing a MAGA hat "ironically".

Edited by Captain Howdy

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18 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

Every day I see the term used dozens of times and I'm supposed to figure out which one is being used ironically? I don't think so. That's like wearing a MAGA hat "ironically".

or... you could get to know a little bit more about Allen, and then maybe not take the path of least-resistance when it comes to reading people and the things they say?

I know, life is shot (and it's definitely getting shorter). But that may be all the more reason to pay attention to the details? Or not?

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48 minutes ago, JSngry said:

or... you could get to know a little bit more about Allen, and then maybe not take the path of least-resistance when it comes to reading people and the things they say?

If I were publishing a book or album or whatever I would select its title without expecting my potential audience to conduct biographical research into the author. But that's just me. 

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3 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

If I were publishing a book or album or whatever I would select its title without expecting my potential audience to conduct biographical research into the author. But that's just me. 

I think in today’s climate the title would not pass muster with a publishing house or a label. 

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1 hour ago, JSngry said:

or... you could get to know a little bit more about Allen, and then maybe not take the path of least-resistance when it comes to reading people and the things they say?

I did somehow miss the fact that he's undergoing cancer treatments, so get well soon, Allen. 

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Here's something we need to ask Allen about. Allen! TDT is on Spotify - some of it - and some of it is there but blanked out. So...what's with that...?

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10 hours ago, Captain Howdy said:

If I were publishing a book or album or whatever I would select its title without expecting my potential audience to conduct biographical research into the author. But that's just me.

This is not a first-time author or other entry-level figure. Allen has been doing this for several decades now., making records of original music (with commentary) writing books about the formations and evolutions of American musics, etc. He's been there for a while now. If you're not familiar with him or his work, it's not because he's not been there to be found.

For all the changes in the various hierarchies around the orbs of this music and its peoples, one constant remains - that of the individuals who go there own way on their own path, willing to go on in spite of the fact that the "institutional structures/powers that be" obsessively interpret any/all unwillingness to kiss their ass as an attempt to bite it.

Just saying - assume nothing about those you don't know anything about. Labels and such are there for sales purposes, not as a path to learning.

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