AllenLowe

FInal Call for Pre-orders: Turn Me Loose White Man:

89 posts in this topic

46 minutes ago, JSngry said:

This is not a first-time author or other entry-level figure. Allen has been doing this for several decades now., making records of original music (with commentary) writing books about the formations and evolutions of American musics, etc. He's been there for a while now. If you're not familiar with him or his work, it's not because he's not been there to be found.

For all the changes in the various hierarchies around the orbs of this music and its peoples, one constant remains - that of the individuals who go there own way on their own path, willing to go on in spite of the fact that the "institutional structures/powers that be" obsessively interpret any/all unwillingness to kiss their ass as an attempt to bite it.

Just saying - assume nothing about those you don't know anything about. Labels and such are there for sales purposes, not as a path to learning. 

Well said. Do the writings (and, in fact, mindset) of Allen Lowe really need an introduction to long(ish)-time forumists here, of all places? It's not that everyone will agree with all of his opinions and evaluations of the histoiry of this music or put the emphasis where he does, but what he has to say (from all I have read) brings in fresh air in a field that is often bogged down IMO by too much "accepted wisdom" that does not question or challenge but confirm and comfort in a way that makes academic writings often appear like a self-centered echo chamber.

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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43 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Well said. Do the writings (and, in fact, mindset) of Allen Lowe really need an introduction to long(ish)-time forumists here, of all places? It's not that everyone will agree with all of his opinions and evaluations of the histoiry of this music or put the emphasis where he does, but what he has to say (from all I have read) brings in fresh air in a field that is often bogged down IMO by too much "accepted wisdom" that does not question or challenge but confirm and comfort in a way that makes academic writings often appear like a self-centered echo chamber.

Ditto!

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20 hours ago, JSngry said:

Well, kumbayah and all that, but if something is sold, that pretty much disqualifies it from being a gift, right?

I always understood that Dizzy believed he gave his music to the world, that it was not stolen by his followers.  If you want to ignore that, and bring Filthy Lucre into it, that's up to you. :rolleyes:

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21 minutes ago, Ted O'Reilly said:

I always understood that Dizzy believed he gave his music to the world, that it was not stolen by his followers.  If you want to ignore that, and bring Filthy Lucre into it, that's up to you. :rolleyes:

Wow, that's really naïve. Trudeau Tea now served!

It's not about the music, it's about the money that has been made off the music and by extension the culture. Those are two entirely separate issues. If all that shit had been straight from jump (or had gottens straight since), the dreaded "cultural appropriation" thing would likely not be here. But no, people keep making excuses, and the more excuses get made, the more the pushback goes towards people looking at a history of people being brought into this world strictly as a type of cash crop. You start from there and work forward, waiting for a point to where you can say, oh, ok, here's where it all changed, stopped, turned around, and...still looking, still waiting. It has evolved, but it has not stopped.

Sure, music itself is a gift. Most people like giving them, and most people like getting them, and EVERYBODY likes that cycle of getting/giving/giving back.

otoh...records, sheet music, booking fees, artist contracts, anything having to do with the selling of the music (and that is what it is) is not a gift. Not even.

As people who have experienced music both as feeling and as product, we should be keenly aware of that difference, especially if we wonder why everybody is so touchy these days. It's not just the "cultural appropriation" adherents that are simple-minded and tedious, it's the other side as well, The Deniers, the ones who insist that we're all beautiful souls and have only accepted the gift and done right by all. You as an individual probably have. But there is a collective reality, and the collective reality is that such a thing has not happened.

It's not complicated. Really, it's not. It only gets that way when one feels a consistent need to make excuses rather than cop to the reality and then go from there.

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I guess I thought the hint that I was being ironic was that I said Appropriating Culture, as a opposed to cultural appropriation; it's supposed to sound like a "How To...."

I agree, actually, that the title shouldn't be so abstract as to require cover-to-cover perusal (and the reader shouldn't have to know all of my work).

But once I again, I do think the word-switch points clearly enough in the right direction.

 

 

 

 

Edited by AllenLowe

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Or we could just buy this collection, enjoy the music, and not care so much about the title. I mean, who cared about the titles of a lot of albums and collections. We just bought the albums and listened to them and never pondered what the titles meant. I didn't, anyway.

Just a few examples. "In the Court of the Crimson King". Who is this king? why is he crimson? what is his court like? is he an imperialist colonizer of native peoples, an oppressor of indigenous societies? Crimson has often meant bloodshed in the Bible and literature. Is this king a mass murderer, a Pol Pot kind of brutal monarch?

We had better not listen to the album at all.

"After Bathing at Baxter's"  What is Baxter's? do you bathe there? Does that mean a private bath in a bathroom with a door with a lock on it, or is it some kind of public nudity pool or spa of some sort? Why are we "after" this bathing? It all sounds like it could be too kinky, or maybe the public nude bathing is exploitative of children or women who had been kidnapped into sex trafficking.

Better not ever listen to it.

"Blood on the Tracks"  This title minimizes the brutal treatment of minority workers who built the Transcontinental Railroad. It seeks to profit from their suffering without providing necessary acknowledgment and monetary compensation to their heirs. To even look at the album jacket is to join the oppressors who degrade the workers' legacy.

Don't even look at this album.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Good points, Hot Ptah. VERY good points. ;)

Will NOT listen to Luther Allison's "LIfe Is A BItch" now. :g ;)

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29 minutes ago, Hot Ptah said:

"Blood on the Tracks"  This title minimizes the brutal treatment of minority workers who built the Transcontinental Railroad. It seeks to profit from their suffering without providing necessary acknowledgment and monetary compensation to their heirs. To even look at the album jacket is to join the oppressors who degrade the workers' legacy.

Don't even look at this album.

Wrong Dylan record!!!!! :g

Bob_Dylan_-_Slow_Train_Coming.jpg

Or, ya' know, we could do both, listen to music for its own sake AND contemplate cultural implications, forwards and backwards. You can even do them in different thought, uh...trains. :g

Once again, sustaining a lie is too much damn work. Truth is always easier in the long run.

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5 hours ago, JSngry said:

 

5 hours ago, JSngry said:

Wow, that's really naïve. Trudeau Tea now served!

It's not about the music, it's about the money that has been made off the music and by extension the culture. Those are two entirely separate issues. If all that shit had been straight from jump (or had gottens straight since), the dreaded "cultural appropriation" thing would likely not be here. But no, people keep making excuses, and the more excuses get made, the more the pushback goes towards people looking at a history of people being brought into this world strictly as a type of cash crop. You start from there and work forward, waiting for a point to where you can say, oh, ok, here's where it all changed, stopped, turned around, and...still looking, still waiting. It has evolved, but it has not stopped.

Sure, music itself is a gift. Most people like giving them, and most people like getting them, and EVERYBODY likes that cycle of getting/giving/giving back.

otoh...records, sheet music, booking fees, artist contracts, anything having to do with the selling of the music (and that is what it is) is not a gift. Not even.

As people who have experienced music both as feeling and as product, we should be keenly aware of that difference, especially if we wonder why everybody is so touchy these days. It's not just the "cultural appropriation" adherents that are simple-minded and tedious, it's the other side as well, The Deniers, the ones who insist that we're all beautiful souls and have only accepted the gift and done right by all. You as an individual probably have. But there is a collective reality, and the collective reality is that such a thing has not happened.

It's not complicated. Really, it's not. It only gets that way when one feels a consistent need to make excuses rather than cop to the reality and then go from there.

Wow, I'm naive.  I'm not Murcan (wtf is Trudeau Tea?) , so therefore stupidly ignorant.  Thank you for explaining that everything I've ever learned and appreciated about jazz for the last 60+ years is wrong, wrong wrong, and that everything needs to be viewed through your/Organissimo's lens.  I bow down to your superior knowledge and world-understanding.

I met and talked with Dizzy.  Did you?  I met and recorded/interviewed with Duke, Basie, Braxton, Lloyd, Cannonball, Chet, Bill Evans, Carmen McRae Russell Procope, Ella, Paul Desmond, Jay; McShann, Duke Pearson, Cedar Walton, Zoot Sims, Buddy Tate, Don Pullen, Ed Bickert, Flip Phillips, Kenny Barron,Martial Solal, Earl Hines,James Moody, Kenny Wheeler, Moncef Genoud, Geoff Keezer, Cab Calloway, Rob McConnell, Don Menza, Jimmie Rowles and several dozens more, yet have never bothered to try to understand about jazz.  I'm naive.

I'm also out of here.  I just can't take the JSangrey-only worldview any more.  You're right, everyone else is stupid/naive/wrong. Bye.

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17 minutes ago, Ted O'Reilly said:

Wow, I'm naive.  I'm not Murcan (wtf is Trudeau Tea?) , so therefore stupidly ignorant.  Thank you for explaining that everything I've ever learned and appreciated about jazz for the last 60+ years is wrong, wrong wrong, and that everything needs to be viewed through your/Organissimo's lens.  I bow down to your superior knowledge and world-understanding.

I met and talked with Dizzy.  Did you?  I met and recorded/interviewed with Duke, Basie, Braxton, Lloyd, Cannonball, Chet, Bill Evans, Carmen McRae Russell Procope, Ella, Paul Desmond, Jay; McShann, Duke Pearson, Cedar Walton, Zoot Sims, Buddy Tate, Don Pullen, Ed Bickert, Flip Phillips, Kenny Barron,Martial Solal, Earl Hines,James Moody, Kenny Wheeler, Moncef Genoud, Geoff Keezer, Cab Calloway, Rob McConnell, Don Menza, Jimmie Rowles and several dozens more, yet have never bothered to try to understand about jazz.  I'm naive.

I'm also out of here.  I just can't take the JSangrey-only worldview any more.  You're right, everyone else is stupid/naive/wrong. Bye.

Ted, we could use your staying here.  Too many have left already. However, if you do there are a few good threads at the Hoffman Forum. You’ll see a few familiar faces but best of all, no BS. Just people enjoying the music. 

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I’m feeling what Ted’s feeling.  I stated my opinion about the title of Allen’s forthcoming box, and was told in response that my opinion is wrong and I shouldn’t have voiced it.  Really?  My opinion holds, regardless of Jim’s word salad verbiage, Allen’s illness (for which I wish him a speedy and complete recovery), my lack of knowledge of Allen’s prior oeuvre, and whatever else.  People have different opinions; why not leave room for them?

Allen: I’ve preordered your box and look forward to hearing it, but your title sucks; that’s my opinion.  It’s not too late to change it to Turn Me On Dead Man.

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6 hours ago, JSngry said:

Wow, that's really naïve. Trudeau Tea now served!

It's not about the music, it's about the money that has been made off the music and by extension the culture. Those are two entirely separate issues. If all that shit had been straight from jump (or had gottens straight since), the dreaded "cultural appropriation" thing would likely not be here. But no, people keep making excuses, and the more excuses get made, the more the pushback goes towards people looking at a history of people being brought into this world strictly as a type of cash crop. You start from there and work forward, waiting for a point to where you can say, oh, ok, here's where it all changed, stopped, turned around, and...still looking, still waiting. It has evolved, but it has not stopped.

Sure, music itself is a gift. Most people like giving them, and most people like getting them, and EVERYBODY likes that cycle of getting/giving/giving back.

otoh...records, sheet music, booking fees, artist contracts, anything having to do with the selling of the music (and that is what it is) is not a gift. Not even.

As people who have experienced music both as feeling and as product, we should be keenly aware of that difference, especially if we wonder why everybody is so touchy these days. It's not just the "cultural appropriation" adherents that are simple-minded and tedious, it's the other side as well, The Deniers, the ones who insist that we're all beautiful souls and have only accepted the gift and done right by all. You as an individual probably have. But there is a collective reality, and the collective reality is that such a thing has not happened.

It's not complicated. Really, it's not. It only gets that way when one feels a consistent need to make excuses rather than cop to the reality and then go from there.

If you want to know the truth,I probably wouldn't have said anything about Allen's title if I hadn't seen this bullshit in the NYT a few weeks before. 

Why Is Everyone Always Stealing Black Music?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/14/magazine/music-black-culture-appropriation.html?searchResultPosition=1

"Why Is Everyone Always Stealing Black Music?" doesn't appear on the page, but that's the title that appears on other pages. 

As an example, Wesley Morris writes: "I started putting each track under investigation. Which artists would saunter up to the racial border? And which could do their sauntering without violating it?"

As a lifelong liberal, I truly believe shit like this is why Trump is in the White House. White people are tired of being accused. This isn't about pretending we did the slaves a favor by bringing them to 'Murica and feeding and housing them: this is about denying that the Doobie Brothers "violated a racial border."

 

Edited by Captain Howdy

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In case nobody's noticed, I'm supporting Allen's title. The irony was obvious, imo, but then again, I'm familiar with Allen and his perspective.

In case nobody's noticed, I'm also tired of the whole "cultural appropriation" conversation, but only because it shouldn't have got to this point. It's not evolution, it's devolution (are we NOT men?).

But let's not kid ourselves - what is driving the whole notion of "theft" is not really music - it's economics. Money. Who's gotten paid and who's not. How was all this capital created, and where has it ended up. There's really no debate about that. As they say, follow the money. We got, what? two ginormous "major label conglomorates" left?

Does anybody in even half a right mind question that many artists, of ALL cultures, were screwed over the years? Of course not. But look, Angsty White People, the issue of "Black Capital" is real, and hell yeah, racism (institutional and personal) has been a at-the-very-least-historical factor in this. To not see this requires a mathematics that has no grounding in reality, Zero-G Caluculus. This conversation WILL be had, like it or not, and if Us White Folk are "tired of being blamed", well shit, don't take it personal,at least as far as what's already happened. But what happens in OUR time IS our responsibility.

Yes, inanity abounds. But if there's neither style nor substance points to be won by ANYBODY in the discussions being had, it's because basic realities are being ignored - on all sides - and reality is being injected-molded into some Creepy Crawler thing.

You guys can bitch and moan and justify all you want. Have fun with that. ok?

Tea time!

TELEMMGLPICT000210005501_trans_NvBQzQNjv

And he's one of the "good guys"!!!!

 

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2 hours ago, Ted O'Reilly said:

I'm also out of here.  I just can't take the JSangrey-only worldview any more.  You're right, everyone else is stupid/naive/wrong. Bye.

1 hour ago, mjzee said:

I’m feeling what Ted’s feeling.  I stated my opinion about the title of Allen’s forthcoming box, and was told in response that my opinion is wrong and I shouldn’t have voiced it.  Really?  My opinion holds, regardless of Jim’s word salad verbiage, Allen’s illness (for which I wish him a speedy and complete recovery), my lack of knowledge of Allen’s prior oeuvre, and whatever else.  People have different opinions; why not leave room for them?

I think you're both being overly sensitive. We're just having a discussion here. This is a vicar's tea party compared to other forums I've been in.

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book-reviews-white-fragility-02.jpg

On the one hand, so much bullshit. SO. MUCH. BULLSHIT.

OTOH, uh...yeah.

If "we're" going to rightfully be "blamed" for anything in/of today, it's probably going to be simply not listening. Just reflexive Denying & Justifying. We're jsut sitting there fouuing of Strike three thinking that eventually they'll stop throwing or else we're gonna get a good hold of one and knock it out of the park.

Seems to be a not wholly unreasonable rap?

Allen, change the tittle to "Careful, White Man Bruise Easily". I don't think that most White People are "racists", but they sure as hell don't pay attention very well.

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16 minutes ago, JSngry said:

book-reviews-white-fragility-02.jpg

On the one hand, so much bullshit. SO. MUCH. BULLSHIT.

OTOH, uh...yeah.

If "we're" going to rightfully be "blamed" for anything in/of today, it's probably going to be simply not listening. Just reflexive Denying & Justifying. We're jsut sitting there fouuing of Strike three thinking that eventually they'll stop throwing or else we're gonna get a good hold of one and knock it out of the park.

Seems to be a not wholly unreasonable rap?

Allen, change the tittle to "Careful, White Man Bruise Easily". I don't think that most White People are "racists", but they sure as hell don't pay attention very well.

Maybe it's so hard for White Man to talk about racism because apparently Black Man considers Kenny Loggins’s “This Is It” an example of racism.

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2 hours ago, Brad said:

Ted, we could use your staying here.  Too many have left already. However, if you do there are a few good threads at the Hoffman Forum. You’ll see a few familiar faces but best of all, no BS. Just people enjoying the music. 

I checked it out but there didn't seem to be that much jazz content.  Is there a sub-forum I missed?   And did people leave or were they driven away? 

 

46 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

I think you're both being overly sensitive. We're just having a discussion here. This is a vicar's tea party compared to other forums I've been in.

And you're proud of that?

Edited by medjuck

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25 minutes ago, medjuck said:

And you're proud of that?

Neither proud nor ashamed. Why should I be?

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21 minutes ago, medjuck said:

I checked it out but there didn't seem to be that much jazz content.  Is there a sub-forum I missed?   And did people leave or were they driven away? 

The content is not as good as it is here as there are only a few threads but the Listening to Jazz and Conversation, and the Jazz Beat are good threads. I think some people were driven away such as Paul Secor. I’ve also had a couple tell me that they had it. This Forum used to have a lot more participating members than it does now. 

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1 hour ago, Captain Howdy said:

Maybe it's so hard for White Man to talk about racism because apparently Black Man considers Kenny Loggins’s “This Is It” an example of racism.

Just let that kind of bullshit play out. The more it gets engaged with, the further away from the core issue the discussion gets. It's distraction into meaninglessness  And who does that benefit?

Nobody except...

becky-lynch-the-man-tee-shirt.jpg.

I'm already regretting even thinking this, much less saying it, but if White People are curious how to navigate this whole climate of transition, they could do far worse things than keeping an eye on Taylor Swift (again, NOT the music, music is not the point of any of this). I'm not really sure, but it seems like she gets it. She gets The Man and all The Man's bullshit and she is not afraid.

AND - when she gets called out for the Cultural Appropriation things (as she has, one time particularly memorably) she did NOT get Angsty White Peopley, she just did not engage in a fight, she recognized, appreciated, and then got back to making more money so she could execute her next acts of fuquitousness against

becky-lynch-the-man-tee-shirt.jpg

I don't know if she personally gives a damn or not, but she gets it. And if she makes it to the finish line in one piece, hey, good for her. It's not JUST race that is freaking people into stupidity these days, it's a lot of things, age, gender, and just a general, uh...critical mass of history.

 

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Pretty soon, the Organissimo forums will consist of five woke guys, having successfully driven out everyone else deemed insufficiently woke.  Congratulations in advance.

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43 minutes ago, mjzee said:

Pretty soon, the Organissimo forums will consist of five woke guys, having successfully driven out everyone else deemed insufficiently woke.  Congratulations in advance.

Victimhood culture is another cliche whose time is up. People may be choosing to leave but no one is being driven out.

Hell, I'll go  if it makes anyone change their mind about leaving. Y'all belong here more than I do. I started this trouble and I don't have anything of substance to contribute anyway.

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8 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

Hell, I'll go  if it makes anyone change their mind about leaving. Y'all belong here more than I do. I started this trouble and I don't have anything of substance to contribute anyway.

I dunno man, you can take a punch pretty damn good. and you seem to be genuinely curious about music. Makes for good conversation, imo. Not always "pretty", but with an avitar like that, hey, nobody can say they weren't warned! :g

As for the whole "woke" nonsense...wake me when that's over. I'm old and I take all my rest (and I'll take anybody else's that they're not using).

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6 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I dunno man, you can take a punch pretty damn good

Like I said, I've been in a lot rougher places than this. ;)

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