J.A.W.

LF: Donald Byrd/Pepper Adams Mosaic set

55 posts in this topic

15 minutes ago, colinmce said:

I would be skeptical. It’s about as possible as having your actual bank account hacked, which has happened to me twice in life vs. never for Paypal. I use it almost daily and know hundreds of people who do the same, and I’ve never heard of this happening.

Not trying to force anything on you of course, just want to reassure you that it is as safe as anything money-related, and private. 

Back in the day (20 years ago) I sold 20K+ LPs all from my house. All cash & personal checks. People came from California, New York, Canada, England, etc.. I know those days are over. I'll just keep it all, & my kids can put in a dumpster when I'm gone.

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I am curios about why Americans chose PayPal for internal US transactions. In euro zone people would normally do an IBAN bank transfer. Your counter-party gives you their bank account number (which is safe, you can't really commit fraud with knowing just somebody's bank account number) and you make a transfer using your online banking. Depending on your bank it's either free or negligibly cheap. Your counter-party gets the money within 24 hours. Yes, it's not immediate, but I do not remember a transaction where somebody would not be willing to wait 24 hours, and it is much cheaper than PayPal (unless you use a free "Friends & Family" option). Is making a bank transfer more complicated than that in the US?

Regarding checks, I lived in the US 20 years ago and I was bemused when I opened a bank account and received a check book. I thought this was a quaint XIX century custom, and I was pretty sure I would never have to use it. Boy, was I wrong. Most of the transactions turned out to be "check or chase only please". In general, US seemed to be quite a bit behind Europe (not to mention Japan or Korea!) technology-wise. At least that was the case 20 years ago.           

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Posted (edited)

13 hours ago, jlhoots said:

Back in the day (20 years ago) I sold 20K+ LPs all from my house. All cash & personal checks. People came from California, New York, Canada, England, etc.. I know those days are over. I'll just keep it all, & my kids can put in a dumpster when I'm gone.

That just seems a waste. I was semi-Luddite and hesitated a long time to move to PayPal but once I did I realized the safety and convenience. I still send and accept checks myself, but it's a rare thing. I would encourage you to try setting up a PayPal account. . . . Better to get a few dollars than have all that land in a landfill. 

I would have bought from you. . . but I had all the items you wanted to sell with one exception where the price was just over my limit for that item. Best of luck L!

Edited by jazzbo

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Posted (edited)

:D

DD, sems like you haven't come across any American yet who more or less accused you of robbery, larceny and mugging in one generalizing swipe as soon as you asked him/her to provide you with their bank account details so you can send them a bank transfer of the kind you correctly described.
It's been a couple of years when this happend to me more than once on US eBay. They must have thought I wanted to rob them of all their worldly goods by merely SUGGESTING that they'd give me their bank account number so I can SEND them the money due (bank fees borne by me, BTW). (Actually I did send international bank transfers occasionally in the 80s and early 90s to the US and to Australia when there was no such thing as Paypal and no fee-less IBAN yet either - and it worked, though the bank fees were to be reckoned with, but US eBayers in the 2000s often just balked)
(No, and now don't ask me about what all this old-fashioned cashiers' check vs personal check matter is all about. Checks have largely been a thing of the past for some 25 years over here by now).
BTW, I do find Paypal convenient too.
In my early eBaying days in the early 2000s I even used the Western-Union-related Bidpay system occasionally (as some US eBay sellers insisted on THAT, probably because they'd be given a CHECK for the amount due and wouldn't have to fuss with bank account transfers ;)) and it always worked fine, Though I later on came to learn that Western Union transfers CAN be a scam.

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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42 minutes ago, Д.Д. said:

I am curios about why Americans chose PayPal for internal US transactions. In euro zone people would normally do an IBAN bank transfer. Your counter-party gives you their bank account number (which is safe, you can't really commit fraud with knowing just somebody's bank account number) and you make a transfer using your online banking. Depending on your bank it's either free or negligibly cheap. Your counter-party gets the money within 24 hours. Yes, it's not immediate, but I do not remember a transaction where somebody would not be willing to wait 24 hours, and it is much cheaper than PayPal (unless you use a free "Friends & Family" option). Is making a bank transfer more complicated than that in the US?

Regarding checks, I lived in the US 20 years ago and I was bemused when I opened a bank account and received a check book. I thought this was a quaint XIX century custom, and I was pretty sure I would never have to use it. Boy, was I wrong. Most of the transactions turned out to be "check or chase only please". In general, US seemed to be quite a bit behind Europe (not to mention Japan or Korea!) technology-wise. At least that was the case 20 years ago.           

I’m not sure of the answer but PayPal took off when eBay started to use them. Interbank transfer is not a concept that we are generally familiar with in this country. 

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7 minutes ago, Brad said:

 Interbank transfer is not a concept that we are generally familiar with in this country. 

Maybe not as a concept, but as a reality, it happens damn near every time you use a debit card or otherwise authorize any other EFT. Might not be familiar with the mechanics, but the reality is how almost everybody gets paid for pretty much everything.

Pay your bills online, through your band's site? Like, you pay Joe's Yard Service every month when they send you an invoice and you choose to use your bank's bill-pay service rather than Joe's? That's exactly what that is.

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Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, Д.Д. said:

I am curios about why Americans chose PayPal for internal US transactions. In euro zone people would normally do an IBAN bank transfer. Your counter-party gives you their bank account number (which is safe, you can't really commit fraud with knowing just somebody's bank account number) and you make a transfer using your online banking. Depending on your bank it's either free or negligibly cheap.      

Within the EU bank-to-bank transfers in euro are free, or at least they should be according to EU rules.

Edited by J.A.W.

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25 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Maybe not as a concept, but as a reality, it happens damn near every time you use a debit card or otherwise authorize any other EFT. Might not be familiar with the mechanics, but the reality is how almost everybody gets paid for pretty much everything.

Pay your bills online, through your band's site? Like, you pay Joe's Yard Service every month when they send you an invoice and you choose to use your bank's bill-pay service rather than Joe's? That's exactly what that is.

I’m not going to address whether a debit card payment is an interbank transaction because the topic is complicated.  PayPal acts as an intermediary to bring payees and payors together. When a payor makes a debit card payment, it’s usually to a merchant. For a there to be a debit transaction between two similarly situated person such as a record buyer and record seller, you’d need a third party to act as intermediary. I’m not sure — but am glad to be proved wrong — our debit card system is set up like that. 

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The bank is the intermediary. You send money from YOUR bank account to the bank account of the recipient.

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Posted (edited)

I can't remember when I last used checks, must be 20+ years ago. I'm not paying with cash in stores here in the Netherlands anymore either, I'm paying electronically by bank card; payments by smartphone are also pretty common here these days.

Edited by J.A.W.

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21 minutes ago, Brad said:

I’m not going to address whether a debit card payment is an interbank transaction because the topic is complicated.  PayPal acts as an intermediary to bring payees and payors together. When a payor makes a debit card payment, it’s usually to a merchant. For a there to be a debit transaction between two similarly situated person such as a record buyer and record seller, you’d need a third party to act as intermediary. I’m not sure — but am glad to be proved wrong — our debit card system is set up like that. 

Bank to bank = interbank. Intermediaries who don't charge a fee do not affect the outcome. The money I spend at Kroger goes from my bank to Kroger's bank, I'm pretty sure (and am also willing to be proven wrong), not to the Kroger store itself for them to then put into their bank. I don't know what the legalities are in terms of defining who's what, but the practical result is the same.

Apart from the debit card system, though, most banks do offer their own bill paying services where you simply "write a check" from your online banking account to whoever you're paying, and then it's a straight EFT, the money goes from your account to theirs. The recipient has to provide you with some kind of ID, if not their actual account #, then some other kind of code so the computer knows where to move the money.

We as a country might well be naive about how fluidly money moves electronically these days, but boy, does it ever!

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49 minutes ago, J.A.W. said:

Within the EU bank-to-bank transfers in euro are free, or at least they should be according to EU rules.

Hans, not exactly. The intra-community euro transfers cannot be be more expensive than domestic transfers. Domestic transfers used to be free, but over the last three-four years the banks in many countries have started introducing per-transaction fees (often hidden in cumulative quarterly payments). And the banks have more leeway to charge corporate accounts per transaction. In any case, these are small amounts. 

32 minutes ago, Brad said:

PayPal acts as an intermediary to bring payees and payors together.

No, it brings your respective bank accounts together.  

1 hour ago, Big Beat Steve said:

:D

DD, sems like you haven't come across any American yet who more or less accused you of robbery, larceny and mugging in one generalizing swipe as soon as you asked him/her to provide you with their bank account details so you can send them a bank transfer of the kind you correctly described.
It's been a couple of years when this happend to me more than once on US eBay. They must have thought I wanted to rob them of all their worldly goods by merely SUGGESTING that they'd give me their bank account number so I can SEND them the money due (bank fees borne by me, BTW). (Actually I did send international bank transfers occasionally in the 80s and early 90s to the US and to Australia when there was no such thing as Paypal and no fee-less IBAN yet either - and it worked, though the bank fees were to be reckoned with, but US eBayers in the 2000s often just balked)
(No, and now don't ask me about what all this old-fashioned cashiers' check vs personal check matter is all about. Checks have largely been a thing of the past for some 25 years over here by now).
BTW, I do find Paypal convenient too.
In my early eBaying days in the early 2000s I even used the Western-Union-related Bidpay system occasionally (as some US eBay sellers insisted on THAT, probably because they'd be given a CHECK for the amount due and wouldn't have to fuss with bank account transfers ;)) and it always worked fine, Though I later on came to learn that Western Union transfers CAN be a scam.

Ha-ha, yes, very true. Americans are very sensitive about their social security numbers, so this might have spilled over to bank account numbers too. 

I like PayPal too, I have been using it since 2000. But it's been 20 years now, there are multiple better and / or cheaper ways to pay these days.

1 hour ago, Brad said:

Interbank transfer is not a concept that we are generally familiar with in this country. 

Yes, this I understood. But why? Is it complicated / expensive / cumbersome? One reasons why I am asking is that I sell stuff on Discogs occasionally, and I have the prices listed in euro. I offer the American buyers to pay in USD at interbank exchange rate (i.e. good rate) to my American bank account (set up through Transferwise - which is, as far as I am concerned, the best cross-currency payment solution today) - and they would invariably choose to pay in euro through PayPal loosing money on PayPal's screw-up exchange rate. I understand there is PayPal's seller protection aspect to it, but perhaps there are other reasons why bank transfers are not an option for Americans.           

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2 minutes ago, Д.Д. said:

Hans, not exactly. The intra-community euro transfers cannot be be more expensive than domestic transfers. Domestic transfers used to be free, but over the last three-four years the banks in many countries have started introducing per-transaction fees (often hidden in cumulative quarterly payments). And the banks have more leeway to charge corporate accounts per transaction. In any case, these are small amounts. 

Ah yes, I see what you mean, those hidden costs.

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PayPal doesn’t necessarily bring bank accounts together; the money in your PayPal account and CC are the first source of funds.

Besides interbank transfers and PayPal, there is also the possibility of Venmo, which is quite popular with many and in some quarters has superseded PayPal. 

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Posted (edited)

13 minutes ago, Д.Д. said:

Yes, this I understood. But why? Is it complicated / expensive / cumbersome? One reasons why I am asking is that I sell stuff on Discogs occasionally, and I have the prices listed in euro. I offer the American buyers to pay in USD at interbank exchange rate (i.e. good rate) to my American bank account (set up through Transferwise - which is, as far as I am concerned, the best cross-currency payment solution today) - and they would invariably choose to pay in euro through PayPal loosing money on PayPal's screw-up exchange rate. I understand there is PayPal's seller protection aspect to it, but perhaps there are other reasons why bank transfers are not an option for Americans.           

My buying and selling days with people outside the EU are long gone, not in the least because of the ridiculous overseas shipping rates these days.

Edited by J.A.W.

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7 minutes ago, Д.Д. said:

Yes, this I understood. But why? Is it complicated / expensive / cumbersome? One reasons why I am asking is that I sell stuff on Discogs occasionally, and I have the prices listed in euro. I offer the American buyers to pay in USD at interbank exchange rate (i.e. good rate) to my American bank account (set up through Transferwise - which is, as far as I am concerned, the best cross-currency payment solution today) - and they would invariably choose to pay in euro through PayPal loosing money on PayPal's screw-up exchange rate. I understand there is PayPal's seller protection aspect to it, but perhaps there are other reasons why bank transfers are not an option for Americans.           

Unfortunately, I don’t really know the answer. Perhaps PayPal marketed itself better as the preferred payment option.

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3 minutes ago, Brad said:

PayPal doesn’t necessarily bring bank accounts together; the money in your PayPal account and CC are the first source of funds.

Besides interbank transfers and PayPal, there is also the possibility of Venmo, which is quite popular with many and in some quarters has superseded PayPal. 

Both CC and PayPal balance are essentially bank accounts :) .  

2 minutes ago, Brad said:

Unfortunately, I don’t really know the answer. Perhaps PayPal marketed itself better as the preferred payment option.

Are PayPal transfers free in the US? 

20 minutes ago, J.A.W. said:

I'm not paying with cash in stores here in the Netherlands anymore either, I'm paying electronically by bank card; payments by smartphone are also pretty common here these days.

Well, Sweden is expected to go completely cashless very soon, and the Netherlands are probably not far behind.   

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Posted (edited)

7 minutes ago, Д.Д. said:

Well, Sweden is expected to go completely cashless very soon, and the Netherlands are probably not far behind.   

I wonder how American tourists will cope...

Edited by J.A.W.

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1 hour ago, J.A.W. said:
1 hour ago, Д.Д. said:

Well, Sweden is expected to go completely cashless very soon, and the Netherlands are probably not far behind.   

I wonder how American tourists will cope...

They will use Mosaic sets for barter.

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PayPal transfers are free for the buyer but the seller gets charged a fee, unless it’s a friends and family transaction. 

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I've used PayPal almost since their inception, and continue to do so, but with certain caveats. Unless things have changed, they are not a bank, so they are not subject to the same regulations that banks are (many of which are for the protection of depositors/customers).

Also, I do not have my main bank account linked to my PayPal account, but rather keep a separate account that is only used with PayPal, with only a small amount of money in that account to keep it active from the bank's perspective. I use PayPal primarily for eBay transactions, and although I rarely sell on eBay these days, both eBay and PayPal policies strongly favor buyers (a primary example: buyers now have 180 days - six months! - to file a claim, so as a seller, you are essentially providing a six-month warranty at no cost during which time a buyer can change his/her mind about the purchase). If a seller winds up on the losing side of a dispute, and doesn't have a sufficient balance in their PayPal account to cover refunding the buyer, PayPal can claw back the balance from their linked bank account. Hence the recommended use of a PayPal-specific bank account to which money is regularly swept from the PayPal account, then withdrawn/transferred to another bank account that PayPal does not have access to. 

Unscrupulous buyers can work eBay/PayPal's buyer-oriented systems to their advantage, and there are plenty of stories from sellers who've had it happen to them. Of course, I would not expect such things to be much of a concern in smaller, more collegial environments like this one. 

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Posted (edited)

15 hours ago, Dave Garrett said:

 If a seller winds up on the losing side of a dispute, and doesn't have a sufficient balance in their PayPal account to cover refunding the buyer, PayPal can claw back the balance from their linked bank account.

That's interesting, as I use paypal as seller on discogs and I already met a couple of lunatic buyers, I am going to cut the Paypal access to my bank account. Thanks!

I am asking myself if is it the same with a credit card?

Edited by porcy62

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15 hours ago, Dave Garrett said:

Unscrupulous buyers can work eBay/PayPal's buyer-oriented systems to their advantage, and there are plenty of stories from sellers who've had it happen to them. Of course, I would not expect such things to be much of a concern in smaller, more collegial environments like this one. 

I've heard a story like you described from a friend too (a case of allegedly faulty goods with they definitely were not) and your caveats are all appropriate. But - in all fairness it needs to be said that for many, many years the pendulum swung heavily in favor of the SELLERS, with Paypal just shrugging and leaving the buyers to work it all out for themselves, claiming that Paypal was just an intermediary platform for transferring the funds and nothing more. It only changed when buyer caveats vs Paypal became that widespread that Paypal saw their entire business model in danger. And things HAVE swung backwards in other ways too because many sellers now only ship by certified mail, which inflates the shipping costs too. This is understandable (to avoid claims of alleged no-show items) but no doubt this hurts their business too if they are being honest to themselves.

The problem in "our" field unfortunately is that grading is such a can of worms that it is very hard to please everyone every time equally at both ends. And let's be honest there too - overall the unscrupulousness about grading did not originate at the buyers' end.

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It started to snow over here today. No use yet for our 30+ year old Stiga. 

zcu46jvddrhy9ph5s08t1rxt

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Yes, there is a chilly Northern wind coming in from your neck of the woods at the moment..:)

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