Walton-Higgins

[HutchFan]

On 4/25/2020 at 7:47 PM, JSngry said:

What I've always loved about Billy's playing is the constant "conversational" type of accents he brings, he's not like Blakey or Max, who chatter away, but more often than not have some sort of pattern-in-mind thing going one (especially Blakey), he's more like Roy in that he just drops that shit in where he feels like it - and where he feels like it seems to always be always the right place for what's going on at any given moment in the conversation.

Jim, that's really interesting... thinking of Higgins as a conversationalist.  I dig that.

Sort of along the same lines, the image that usually comes to me when I'm listening to Billy Higgins is a dancer.  His drumming IS flexibility and movement.  The patterns are there too, of course -- but as a listener you can't help but get caught up in his dancing -- because that the thing, whatever the steps may be.

This coming from a non-musician, of course!  Just my way of putting some pieces together.  

[JSngry]

I've evolved (or deteriorated, as the case may be) into thinking that dancing is really just a whole-being conversation with time/space (and those who we choose to allow in there with us). Body movement, speech, all this stuff, none of it is an entirely isolated-from-itself activity (unless some sort of spectrum-y dynamic is involved, and that I don't know too much about).

But especially as it pertains to what is "generally" thought of as "African-American" music...the "European" paradigms of hyper-measurement-through micro-separation of/into increasingly specific elements...at some point I'm not sure if that gets us to a better understanding of where we started from or just into a totally illusory place of confirmation bias.

(deteriorated, most likely, but oh well...)

[mikeweil]

I've never seen Higgins dancing, but sitting behind his drumset he looked more like he had drumsticks inside all his limbs - didn't look nearly as flexible as his playing sounded. I mean, the way somebody looks while playing does no way give a hint at what he sounds like. At least that's my experience.

Walton and Higgins, btw, laid down some serious grooves for Eddie Harris on his first Atlantic LPs. Ron Carter on bass. 

[Guy Berger]

15 hours ago, Joe said:

Well, I don't intend t throw shade. I'm merely observing that, if "the Sidewinder" is the template for many (if not all) subsequent BN boogaloo tracks, then Billy's approach to the beat is — springy, but still shuffling — is an essential part of what makes it a template at all.

I like Higgins but I don’t think his grooves were less funky than those of many of his peers

[Gheorghe]

This was my first listening encounter Cliff Jordan and the Magic Triangle (Walton, Jones, Higgins). Vol. 1 - 3. I still listen very much to it. 

One funny thing is Cliff Jordan sometimes sounds quite rough, on "Old Devil Moon" it seems that he just had to "learn" the tune on stage. But there is really some freakish beauty in what he does. 

And my favourite track is the medium tempo "I Should Care" and the fast "St. Thomas" with a great Billy Higgins solo. 

Only that Cedar Walton was not happy with the quality of the piano. But play he does on this ! Great as ever. 

[sidewinder]

1 hour ago, Gheorghe said:

Only that Cedar Walton was not happy with the quality of the piano. But play he does on this ! Great as ever. 

Considering some of the rubbish out-of-tune instruments Cedar had to tolerate over the years, with some featured on recordings, it must have been bad for him to mention it. Prestige ‘house’ piano circa 1968 being a particular nadir (although that instrument does have a certain period charm).

Edited May 1, 2020 by sidewinder

[Daniel A]

On 2020-04-30 at 1:10 AM, mikeweil said:

I've never seen Higgins dancing, but sitting behind his drumset he looked more like he had drumsticks inside all his limbs - didn't look nearly as flexible as his playing sounded. I mean, the way somebody looks while playing does no way give a hint at what he sounds like. At least that's my experience.

Walton and Higgins, btw, laid down some serious grooves for Eddie Harris on his first Atlantic LPs. Ron Carter on bass. 

Their playing on The In Sound is simply fantastic, and BTW I think this is one of the best piano solos ever:

 

[Gheorghe]

On 1.5.2020 at 10:12 AM, sidewinder said:

Considering some of the rubbish out-of-tune instruments Cedar had to tolerate over the years, with some featured on recordings, it must have been bad for him to mention it. Prestige ‘house’ piano circa 1968 being a particular nadir (although that instrument does have a certain period charm).

I don´t know what the guys from Prestige had "against pianos" , I mean why did they neglect this wonderful Instrument ? It started with the out of tune piano on Monk´s 1952 sessions, but I think that´s part of the charm of that record. 

I don´t have records from 1968 from Prestige, Always had thought this was a 50´s label until I bought to my astonishement a Dexter Gordon 1973 Prestige Album Tangerine and also heard the "tinny" Sound of the piano, though Hank Jones is playing….

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

i have tender storm in mono

[sidewinder]

2 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

I don´t know what the guys from Prestige had "against pianos" , I mean why did they neglect this wonderful Instrument ? It started with the out of tune piano on Monk´s 1952 sessions, but I think that´s part of the charm of that record. 

I don´t have records from 1968 from Prestige, Always had thought this was a 50´s label until I bought to my astonishement a Dexter Gordon 1973 Prestige Album Tangerine and also heard the "tinny" Sound of the piano, though Hank Jones is playing….

Yes you are right, it does add a certain ‘charm’ to these recordings. Very noticeable on Cedar’s debut for Prestige, ‘Cedar’. By coincidence I have just bought a mono vinyl LP of that Walton/Higgins session, a very fine debut by him.

[danasgoodstuff]

On 4/28/2020 at 6:32 AM, Joe said:

Surely we've discussed this before, but, revisiting Billy Higgins' BN discography, it seems more apparent to me than ever before that there would be no BN boogaloo sound without him.

Yes, but to my ears what I hear as 'that sound' predates SW - "Watermelon Man" and Donald Byrd's "Pentecostal Feeling" are earlier and in the same bag to me...I've thought about this a lot, I've even mapped pout an imaginary boxed set of BN Groove Things (which makes the concept a little looser than 'boogaloo', but no shuffles and no going back to a steady walking 4 for the solos after a groovy head, alternating vamp and walk/shuffle that's fine) AND to my surprise, although Billy is the most common drummer on it and on the two I mentioned above, it's not by nearly as much as I would've guessed, even if you disallow Idris, etc.

Edited May 22, 2020 by danasgoodstuff

[Daniel A]

47 minutes ago, sidewinder said:

Yes you are right, it does add a certain ‘charm’ to these recordings. Very noticeable on Cedar’s debut for Prestige, ‘Cedar’. By coincidence I have just bought a mono vinyl LP of that Walton/Higgins session, a very fine debut by him.

How's the sound? I have it as a stereo pressing, and - as usual for this Prestige vintage - sound is so-so, partly because of uncomfortable stereo separation. 

[sidewinder]

1 hour ago, Daniel A said:

How's the sound? I have it as a stereo pressing, and - as usual for this Prestige vintage - sound is so-so, partly because of uncomfortable stereo separation. 

Sorry Daniel, it’s heading in the mail today and should be with me early next week so will update when I get it. This one is a UK Transatlantic pressing, which I suspect will be better than the Prestige but we’ll have to see. I have got many of the tracks on that OJC ‘Plays Cedar Walton’ set. The other Prestige original I have of that era is a stereo ‘Spectrum’.

Yes, the stereo separation on these can be quirky, to say the least.

Edited May 22, 2020 by sidewinder

[Daniel A]

2 hours ago, sidewinder said:

Sorry Daniel, it’s heading in the mail today and should be with me early next week so will update when I get it. This one is a UK Transatlantic pressing, which I suspect will be better than the Prestige but we’ll have to see.

Thanks! I have the best-of OJC on CD as well, and 'Cedar' and 'Soul Cycle' on Prestige vinyl. 🙂 Looking for 'Spectrum', but it hasn't turned up yet in the bins. (As if I ever have time to search any LP bins these days 😄) 

[Joe]

4 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

Yes, but to my ears what I hear as 'that sound' predates SW - "Watermelon Man" and Donald Byrd's "Pentecostal Feeling" are earlier and in the same bag to me...I've thought about this a lot, I've even mapped pout an imaginary boxed set of BN Groove Things (which makes the concept a little looser than 'boogaloo', but no shuffles and no going back to a steady walking 4 for the solos after a groovy head, alternating vamp and walk/shuffle that's fine) AND to my surprise, although Billy is the most common drummer on it and on the two I mentioned above, it's not by nearly as much as I would've guessed, even if you disallow Idris, etc.

Thanks! You make a good point about Donald Byrd. The evolution from "Amen" on FUEGO (1959) to "Pentecostal Feeling" (1961) is worth tracing. Always interesting to hear Wyane with Billy as well... even if the original SPEAK NO EVIL sessions didn't quite work out.

[danasgoodstuff]

I did a lot of listening putting this thing together in my head, and one of the things it did was give me a greater appreciation for Donald Byrd.  And the amount of work that went into getting to that groove, it didn't just happen.  It's a shame Pentecostal Feeling wasn't issued right away (it was years after Watermelon Man) and as the lead track on that album.  But I think it was the 4th DB led session of '61 so it's understandable that they held it back.

[sidewinder]

3 hours ago, Daniel A said:

Thanks! I have the best-of OJC on CD as well, and 'Cedar' and 'Soul Cycle' on Prestige vinyl. 🙂 Looking for 'Spectrum', but it hasn't turned up yet in the bins. (As if I ever have time to search any LP bins these days 😄) 

My ‘Spectrum’ came from Paris Jazz Corner in pristine condition in the days when their vinyl selection was better and they were affordable . Only have ‘Soul Cycle’ on CD and still looking for an ‘Electric Boogaloo Song’ on vinyl. All good stuff !

Incidentally, I once cooked Cedar some popcorn helping out at a jazz club and I don’t think he was over-impressed with my effort. Otherwise, a nice guy !  

[Daniel A]

18 hours ago, sidewinder said:

Incidentally, I once cooked Cedar some popcorn helping out at a jazz club and I don’t think he was over-impressed with my effort. Otherwise, a nice guy !  

Did you burn them? 

[sidewinder]

9 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

Did you burn them? 

Yeah, probably !  It was a bit of a rushed effort and he probably had an appetite after his performance (I was helping the back stage crew in voluntary capacity - got to see Cedar for free though).

The other time I met him was at Ronnie Scotts, in punter mode. An extremely pleasant chat - he was telling me that his next gig was in Back Bay, California with Milt Jackson. Whenever possible, I used to make a real effort to get to Cedar’s annual visit to that club. Initially with Eastern Rebellion and later on with his trio. 

Edited May 23, 2020 by sidewinder

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

another thing about TENDER STORM- unique Atlantic packaging on that as well- the spine and rear cover are the only i've ever seen like that 

[sidewinder]

On 22/05/2020 at 8:29 AM, Daniel A said:

How's the sound? I have it as a stereo pressing, and - as usual for this Prestige vintage - sound is so-so, partly because of uncomfortable stereo separation. 

The ‘Cedar’ has arrived - it’s actually in stereo in the Transatlantic version but I have no problems with the soundstage or the clarity of this pressing. Very happy with it !  Decent weight of vinyl and what looks to be good vinyl quality.

Transatlantics were marketed also in Scandinavia so maybe there are spare copies to be found in Stockholm?

[Daniel A]

3 hours ago, sidewinder said:

 

Transatlantics were marketed also in Scandinavia so maybe there are spare copies to be found in Stockholm?

Maybe, but I cannot remember seeing many of those here. Maybe people are holding on to them? Anyway, I re-listened to my floppy 70s pressing and the stereo image was actually fine! 

60s Atlantic albums is another matter, though. You really want those in mono.