The Future of Jazz

[felser]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

1977 was a pretty good year though. Maybe not for Bud Shank, but oh well about that.

 

1977 to 1986 were all pretty good years, but something totally different than the previous decade, which had several great years.

[Teasing the Korean]

33 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

A veneer of elegance and urbanity is not a necessity for jazz in my listening world!

To each his own, but I will not let others (not referring to you) question my commitment to jazz. When I was an undergraduate at Yale, I was in charge of hiring society orchestras for our fraternity mixers, and I insisted that their fox trot arrangements incorporate adequate levels of syncopation. 

[ep1str0phy]

Come on folks, this is hilarious. I love this kind of discussion fodder - it's satirical on the surface and meaningful if you want do dig underneath.

I'm not very familiar with most of the music TTK has posted, but I do appreciate the listen. I think it's worth noting that while a lot of this time-trapped, rock-inflected jazz is more or less apocrypha to the overarching story of jazz, there were and are certain recordings with similar intentions that now sound entirely successful for (maybe unintentional) reasons.

I was just having a conversation with a friend about the degree to which Rahsaan Roland Kirk was suspicious of, and in some cases outright hostile to, the use of electronics and rock elements in jazz. (There's also a throughline there about the conceptual bankruptcy of free jazz, but that's of only tangential relevance.) The irony is, of course, that a lot of the music that Rahsaan formulated as a response to rock music wound up presaging a lot of the fully-realized mixed genre music of the ensuing decades. There's an argument to be made that The Case of the 3 Sided Dream in Audio Color, which is at turns pastiche and at others an earnest attempt at some kind of Varese-ian mainstream jazz, contained some of the earliest inklings of what would later become full-blown hip-hop and beat culture. 

[JSngry]

7 minutes ago, felser said:

1977 to 1986 were all pretty good years, but something totally different than the previous decade, which had several great years.

No, not really. It jsut seems that way because you were the target demographic then and it feel like they were speaking to you.

I mean, that's the way this shit works. Supposed to work like that and does. No need to apologize for it working, any more than Bud Shank didn't need to apologize for making those records. That's the way shit is suppose to work. Free people, free market, everything free but money.

[Dave James]

6 hours ago, felser said:

And ironically, access to the music is more open than ever.  I remember when the idea of hearing some old, out of print Blue Note album (McLean's "A Fickle Sonance" was the holy grail) seemed like nothing more than a pipe dream.

Amen to that.  I recall almost requiring resuscitation when I found a Japanese import of "Sonny's Crib" at one of the Tower Records outlets here in Portland.  When the Connoisseur Series made its debut, I was useless for about a week.  

[JSngry]

OH SHIT I JUST GOT BACK FROM THE FUTURE OF JAZZ AND THERE WAS DICK HYMAN ALL OVER IT ALL OVER IT!!!!

Oddly enough, so was Zoot Sims...didn't see that one coming...

 

[Dave James]

6 hours ago, Brad said:

Interesting journey, somewhat similar to mine. My parents had all kinds of music that I listened to: classical, popular, show tunes, you name it. I generally lost interest in popular music and rock after the mid 70s. I was also trying to establish a career and a family so little time for music. When I gravitated back, I wanted something different, which led to jazz.  However, I’ve also returned to the music I grew up with; I went from 0 to 100% jazz (turning my nose up at anything else) to probably 50-50 Jazz and everything else. Life is cyclical. 

Me too.  At this point, I'm guessing I'm 75% rock and 25% jazz even thought the ratio of jazz to rock in my collection is probably 85/15.  For whatever reason, Southern rock as espoused by the likes of The Allman Brothers, The Outlaws, Skynyrd, Atlanta Rhythm Section, Bruce Marshall and especially Marshall Tucker has had a hold on me for some time.  (The picture that accompanies my postings shows me holding a tambourine that Doug Gray tossed to me when I saw what left of MTB a few years back at the Clark County County Fair in Ridgefield, Washington).  I've also become a big fan of the Marcus King Band.  

[jazzbo]

39 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

To each his own, but I will not let others (not referring to you) question my commitment to jazz. When I was an undergraduate at Yale, I was in charge of hiring society orchestras for our fraternity mixers, and I insisted that their fox trot arrangements incorporate adequate levels of syncopation. 

Okay. I'm just so confused by this discussion. If you're being at all serious I like jazz with sophistication and urbanity and love jazz totally devoid of it. If you're just swirling ice cubes in a highball glass and having us all on, cool. Go head. I'll leave you to your devices.

[Teasing the Korean]

5 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

... I like jazz with sophistication and urbanity and love jazz totally devoid of it...

I know you do!

[JSngry]

23 minutes ago, ep1str0phy said:

I was just having a conversation with a friend about the degree to which Rahsaan Roland Kirk was suspicious of, and in some cases outright hostile to, the use of electronics and rock elements in jazz.

I really should scan/upload/post this MASSIVE interview that M. Cusuna did with RRK in the April 1971 issue of JAZZ & POP, but check this little tiny bit out, he's talking about the strength of mind it takes to it takes to truly create something instead of just imitate it and how that strength can also drive people crazy b/c the human accomplishment involved is not valued except as fodder for the machine.

Man, Wes Montgomery spent so much time on the guitar. Then after he gets half-way known, somebody invents a button that you push that it sounds like Wes Montgomery. Now you gonna tell me that a man in his normal mind can take some shit like that? After you done broke your fingers, you done stretched your fingers, man; this man didn't even use no picks, and you gonna tell me that you can just accept something like that, man? No, i can't buy it, and you can't beat me to make me buy it. Ain't nobody can make me buy nothing like that, cause it's wrong. You dig? It's wrong.

Oh, this thing does go on, there's also talk about The Jazz & Peoples Movement, just ALL kinds of things...it's rich.

 

 

[jazzbo]

6 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I know you do!

Okay, glad you know. I hear those ice cubes swishing in the glass just like I do whenever I would talk to Danny D'Imperio on the phone. Be safe and don't drive.

[danasgoodstuff]

31 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I really should scan/upload/post this MASSIVE interview that M. Cusuna did with RRK in the April 1971 issue of JAZZ & POP, but check this little tiny bit out, he's talking about the strength of mind it takes to it takes to truly create something instead of just imitate it and how that strength can also drive people crazy b/c the human accomplishment involved is not valued except as fodder for the machine.

Man, Wes Montgomery spent so much time on the guitar. Then after he gets half-way known, somebody invents a button that you push that it sounds like Wes Montgomery. Now you gonna tell me that a man in his normal mind can take some shit like that? After you done broke your fingers, you done stretched your fingers, man; this man didn't even use no picks, and you gonna tell me that you can just accept something like that, man? No, i can't buy it, and you can't beat me to make me buy it. Ain't nobody can make me buy nothing like that, cause it's wrong. You dig? It's wrong.

Oh, this thing does go on, there's also talk about The Jazz & Peoples Movement, just ALL kinds of things...it's rich.

 

 

So, John Henry all over again and again and...the steam hammer always wins, but not in the hearts and minds and myth?

[JSngry]

John Henry? You mean Patrick Henry, right?

[jlhoots]

37 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

Okay, glad you know. I hear those ice cubes swishing in the glass just like I do whenever I would talk to Danny D'Imperio on the phone. Be safe and don't drive.

Is Deep still with us?

[Teasing the Korean]

58 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

Be safe and don't drive.

Oh, I ain't going anywhere in this pandemic, even if our dumb-ass elected officials tell us it's safe. 

[felser]

36 minutes ago, JSngry said:

John Henry? You mean Patrick Henry, right?

"Give me an acoustic rhythm section or give me death!"

 

[danasgoodstuff]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

John Henry? You mean Patrick Henry, right?

Hmm, no.  Not sure why you would think or say that.  Let's leave my family out of it.

[JSngry]

Give me (what is rightfully mine) or give me death!

When framed as a labor issue, the march toward progress is rightly viewed an a noble thing with unfortunate, if at times noble, casualties. But ultimately, you know, ownership wins, because they have a right to it, so let's all move on, right?

And that's one way to look at it. "Just how it is" because....that is just how it is.

But another way to look at it is that, wait a minute, you going to take what is mine from me, for you, and basically tell me tough shit, them's the breaks? And that's it? That's all you think I'm here for is to be your cheap labor bitch? You want to call your god "master" and then you want me to call YOU the same thing (silently or otherwise), because you think that you should be - ARE - my god? Well, let's get this shit out in the open now and let's see how much of a god you are without having slaves (even voluteered ones) to keep you going. Let's see where the real strength and power comes from, ok?

That's another way to look at to look at it, and I'll be damned if can say it's wrong in any way.

Now, back to John Henry, I have to say that for any number of reason, all of them probably reasonable, probably none of the good, I've never heard this. So looking to visit The Future Of Jazz (non-Caucasio-Centric Iteration), I just one-clicked this, finally, wish me luck!

[jazzbo]

4 hours ago, jlhoots said:

Is Deep still with us?

Oh yes.

[ep1str0phy]

6 hours ago, JSngry said:

Give me (what is rightfully mine) or give me death!

When framed as a labor issue, the march toward progress is rightly viewed an a noble thing with unfortunate, if at times noble, casualties. But ultimately, you know, ownership wins, because they have a right to it, so let's all move on, right?

And that's one way to look at it. "Just how it is" because....that is just how it is.

But another way to look at it is that, wait a minute, you going to take what is mine from me, for you, and basically tell me tough shit, them's the breaks? And that's it? That's all you think I'm here for is to be your cheap labor bitch? You want to call your god "master" and then you want me to call YOU the same thing (silently or otherwise), because you think that you should be - ARE - my god? Well, let's get this shit out in the open now and let's see how much of a god you are without having slaves (even voluteered ones) to keep you going. Let's see where the real strength and power comes from, ok?

That's another way to look at to look at it, and I'll be damned if can say it's wrong in any way.

Now, back to John Henry, I have to say that for any number of reason, all of them probably reasonable, probably none of the good, I've never heard this. So looking to visit The Future Of Jazz (non-Caucasio-Centric Iteration), I just one-clicked this, finally, wish me luck!

RRK's political philosophy (for lack of a better term & lack of complete understanding on my part, and not for lack of trying) is pretty interesting in this way. The entire Jazz & People's Movement has an American blue collar undercurrent the intersects with, but doesn't totally coincide with, the kind of socialist mentality that was prevailing in avant-garde circles at the time (it bears note that Shepp was involved, as were, apparently, a lot of "free jazz people" who didn't make the Ed Sullivan appearance). Rubbing against this is Rahsaan's apparent preoccupation with mainstream commercial appeal, something analogous to (but probably more fruitful than) Ayler's late career obsession with making his music accessible. This is getting into some aggressive pseudo-intellectualism, I know, but I've always found it interesting that Rahsaan's music was insistent on juxtaposing this ongoing complaint against (racialized) music business machinery against a tacit approval of music business capitalism.

I think RRK's spiel you quoted above is pretty close to the money, and it maybe goes a bit deeper. He seemed to resent the most popular (mostly young, mostly white, mostly electric, often British) artists of the time for the simple fact that they kind of couldn't play their instruments at a level comparable to that of most professional jazz musicians. This is not a value judgment issue per se--it's more a "dues paying" issue emergent to a time in history when the historical continuity of jazz seemed to become irreparably fucked up. I think that to RRK, folks like the Beatles represented a massive reconfiguration of cultural priorities, undoing, surely, some of the work that Rahsaan had invested so much time in.

Germane to this thread, but this reminds me of one of the talking head spiels from the Wrecking Crew documentary--i.e., "We studied the [Beatles/British invasion/young person rock music] and learned how to play it better than they did." I think that that faction of the LA studio scene, with all of its own blue collar trappings, had many of the same hangups that RRK did--the difference being that the Wrecking Crew folks found a way to live with the problem and even thrive because of (and not in spite of) it.

[Teasing the Korean]

I appreciate the fact that you guys keep talking about me, but please be careful when typing. The R key is right next to T, so TTK keeps coming out as RRK. 

[kh1958]

22 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I appreciate the fact that you guys keep talking about me, but please be careful when typing. The R key is right next to T, so TTK keeps coming out as RRK. 

Aren't you the guy who plays three exotica records simultaneoulsy?

[Brad]

18 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Oh, I agree, they should indeed!

But as listeners, you and I can decide how we wish to receive those messages. 

So a sentiment that may come off as vulgar and uncouth when delivered by an unrefined rock artist becomes far more palatable when delivered in a genteel, polished, and cultured manner. 

And is this not the essence of jazz? Sophisticated music delivered with a veneer of elegance and urbanity? 

If you wish to hear "Paint It, Black" by Mr. Jagger, you have every right to do so, but I prefer the version by Gabor Szabo.

 

 

The Szabo version is not bad although I would have liked to have seen some more improvisation than sticking so closely to the melody.

I agree that we as listeners decide if we wish to listen to a song or not; that is the function of choice.

However, where would music be if an artist delivered music according to an arbiter’s choice of gentility. For example, by following such a standard, there may have never been a Bird or a Little Richard.

The essence of music is not some standard handed down by others — “you kids don’t know what good music. In my day, blah, blah.” The essence of music is the effect it has on the listener, however it is delivered, in whatever manner it is delivered. Creativity includes the breaking of new bounds. 

[Peter Friedman]

Reading this thread is good for a laugh. I have not ever  purchased or even  heard any of the recordings pictured in this thread. And none of them stimulate my interest at all.

I do however like the jazz playing of Bud Shank, and consider many of his recordings very good.

[Joe]

Zappa also advised us to kill ugly radio. Prescient, but not in the way he probably intended.