Larry Kart Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 after Mobley left? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 (edited) doesn’t seem like it. From Losin: “After the flurry of Columbia studio activity and live recording in the spring of 1961, Davis was relatively inactive during 1961-1962. He was evidently unhappy with Hank Mobley, though he did not replace him until sometime the following year. J.J. Johnson was added to the group as another solo voice, and the Sextet was booked at the Club Renaissance, Los Angeles (October 12-19); Minor Key Club, Detroit (December 7-10); Jazz Gallery, New York (December 21, 1961-January 3, 1962); Howard Theatre, Washington (January 12-18 -- Johnson apparently did not make this gig); Indiana University Auditorium (March 24 -- a benefit for the Indiana NAACP for which Davis did not show!); April 17-22, Village Vanguard, New York; May 19-28, Mardi Gras, Kansas City; June 1-10, Music Box Theatre, Los Angeles; June 12-July 1, Blackhawk Supper Club, San Francisco; July 4-10, The Penthouse, Seattle; August 16-19, Minor Key, Detroit; August 24-25, La Comédie Canadienne, Montreal (Davis filled in for an ailing Sonny Rollins for the August 25 matinée); September 17-22, Showboat, Philadelphia; November 13-19, Village Vanguard, New York. A four-night engagement at the Music Box Club, Cleveland (December 6-9) was canceled and rescheduled for December 27-30. Mobley is still listed as the saxophonist at the end of 1962.” ”The problems Davis had throughout 1962 with keeping a working group continued into 1963. His quintet was booked at the Philadelphia's Uptown Theatre from December 25, 1962 through January 1, 1963 (Wednesday-Tuesday); in addition to missing one of the sets on December 25, Davis walked out and missed the last two nights (and was later ordered by the musicians' union to pay the promoter $8000). A two-week engagement at Chicago's Sutherland Lounge, January 30-February 10 (Wednesday-Sunday) was followed by the sudden departure of Wynton Kelly and Paul Chambers. Davis was forced to cancel an eight-day engagement at Gino's Club in St. Louis, February 15-23 (Friday-Saturday). He was booked for two weeks at the Blackhawk Supper Club in San Francisco, March 5-17 (Tuesday-Sunday), but the opening was delayed for a week while Davis recruited some West Coast players. In addition to Jimmy Cobb, he ended up with Frank Strozier on alto, George Coleman on tenor, Victor Feldman or Harold Mabern on piano, and Ron Carter on bass (at the time Carter was playing with Art Farmer). The sextet played a ten-day gig at Shelly's Manne-Hole in Los Angeles, April 5-14 (Friday-Sunday). Cobb left during or immediately after this engagement and was replaced briefly by Frank Butler. The quintet with Feldman on piano and without Strozier went into Columbia's Hollywood studios these sessions. Butler remained in Los Angeles and the rest of the group returned to the East Coast, where they were booked for one night at the Lyric Theatre in Baltimore (May 9; "The Miles Davis Quintette" was listed as Davis, George Coleman, Frank Strozier, Harold Maybern [sic], Jim Cobb. I can't believe that Carter didn't play with the group, so either it was not a "quintette" or else one of the horns, probably Strozier, didn't play). Davis fired Strozier and Mabern soon afterward, hiring Hancock and Williams; and the new Miles Davis Quintet -- Davis, Coleman, Hancock, Carter, Williams -- went into Columbia's 30th Street Studio on May 14, then hit the road: Jazz Villa, St. Louis (May 27-June 4); Sutherland Lounge, Chicago (June 5-16); Jazz Temple, Cleveland (June 20-23 -- listed as the Miles Davis Sextet); Village Vanguard, New York (July 2-14).” Edited June 2, 2020 by Guy Berger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 If he was at Penthouse in Seattle with Mobley, there could be a recording. I would love to hear a recording with Strozier... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Friedman Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 Cafe Bohemia NYC July 13, 1957 Miles Davis, Sonny Rollins, Red Garland, Paul Chambers, Art Taylor This was broadcast and a recording made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Peter Friedman said: Cafe Bohemia NYC July 13, 1957 Miles Davis, Sonny Rollins, Red Garland, Paul Chambers, Art Taylor This was broadcast and a recording made. Larry's referring to the early 1960s, after Hank Mobley departed from the group. EDIT: yikes. Your post, Larry, triggered a faint sign of recognition on my part, and I went back to the script for the "Miles Between" Night Lights show that we just re-aired this past week. I make reference in that post to Rollins briefly playing with Miles after returning from his sabbatical. I originally put the show together several years ago and will have to dig into my notes to see if I can find what source I used for that statement. If it proves to be inaccurate or unverifiable, I'll remove the reference. Edited June 2, 2020 by ghost of miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 This may have been my source, but I honestly can't remember--and even so, this could be wrong and certainly doesn't settle the question. From Gerald Early's 2001 book Miles Davis And American Culture (pg. 123): >>Between 1960 and 1962, Miles tried different combinations of musicians in his working band, all fine musicians and some even great. But soon the band became like a turnstile, with players like Sonny Stitt, Hank Mobley, Sonny Rollins, George Coleman, Frank Strozier, J.J. Johnson, Jimmy Heath, Victor Feldman, Frank Butler, and Harold Mabern moving in and out of it.<< Might be one for Mike F.'s listserv. I have to do my live show in half an hour, but I'll try to dig a little deeper on this after work this evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 I'd wager lunch that if Sonny did do the gig at all during this period, it was just for a night or two, and maybe done as a "favor" to either one by the other, certainly not anything involving an ongoing commitment lasting even as long as a full engagement (like they used to do, you know, a week or two at a time). Surely there would be beaucoup documentation of that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 Could Sonny be asked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 OK, I think I’ve found my source, though I did read the Early book while I was working on that show. On pg 43 of the booklet to Sony’s Seven Steps box set, Bob Blumenthal writes, “Sonny Stitt filled the slot in the closing months of 1960, playing tenor and alto saxes, then Hank Mobley, Rocky Boyd, and even Sonny Rollins (as he worked his way back from a two-year performing sabbatical).” Blumenthal’s notes are dated May 2004, so I suppose it’s possible that he’s basing that statement on Early’s book—though Early makes no reference to Sonny’s sabbatical. And Jsngry’s speculation that it may have been a one or two-time thing certainly merits consideration as a plausible explanation for such accounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 3, 2020 Report Share Posted June 3, 2020 I'd have to think that if Sonny had played more than a night or two with Miles before he officially resurfaced that word would have gotten out fast and the grapevine would be abuzz quicker that you could say Robertson Caruso. The only variable would be in what city it would have been and for how many sets. If we want to take the chronology as literal (and I'm not sure that I do...), let's Sherlock this shit - Sonny returned to public performance in November of 1961 to much attention. If we're going to look at Sonny doing a few gigs/sets with Miles as a "warmup" to that, and if this was supposed to have happened after Hank left the band, well, Hank supposedly(?) stayed with Miles until early 1962 (that does not at all seem accurate, btw). so...would he have covered for Hank on a gig, or even a set or two? "Unpredictable lives", etc...but still. Also, Rocky Boyd...generally reported to have taken Hank's place for three months after Hank left in 1961?!?!?! Losin has this: Hank Mobley joined the Davis Quintet in late 1960 and immediately hit the road: Cloister Club, Chicago (December 26-January 8); Bradford Hotel Storyville Room, Boston (January 23-28); a live jazz program for Chicago's WMBI-FM (February 6); Kleinhans Music Hall, Buffalo (February 25); Village Vanguard, New York (February 28-March 12); Shrine Auditorium, Los Angeles (March 31); Blackhawk Supper Club, San Francisco (April 4-30); Foster's House of Jazz, Detroit (May 25-28). and this: After the flurry of Columbia studio activity and live recording in the spring of 1961, Davis was relatively inactive during 1961-1962. He was evidently unhappy with Hank Mobley, though he did not replace him until sometime the following year. J.J. Johnson was added to the group as another solo voice, and the Sextet was booked at the Club Renaissance, Los Angeles (October 12-19); Minor Key Club, Detroit (December 7-10); Jazz Gallery, New York (December 21, 1961-January 3, 1962); Howard Theatre, Washington (January 12-18 -- Johnson apparently did not make this gig); Indiana University Auditorium (March 24 -- a benefit for the Indiana NAACP for which Davis did not show!); April 17-22, Village Vanguard, New York; May 19-28, Mardi Gras, Kansas City; June 1-10, Music Box Theatre, Los Angeles; June 12-July 1, Blackhawk Supper Club, San Francisco; July 4-10, The Penthouse, Seattle; August 16-19, Minor Key, Detroit; August 24-25, La Comédie Canadienne, Montreal (Davis filled in for an ailing Sonny Rollins for the August 25 matinée); September 17-22, Showboat, Philadelphia; November 13-19, Village Vanguard, New York. A four-night engagement at the Music Box Club, Cleveland (December 6-9) was canceled and rescheduled for December 27-30. Mobley is still listed as the saxophonist at the end of 1962. So...when did Rocky Boyd's three months come? And where would Sonny have popped in with no fanfare to play a set or two, maybe even a night or two? There's a window between June-mid-October of 1961 that's not documented by this chronology, and maybe that's where Rocky Boyd stepped in for three months? Maybe Hank was "having problems" and couldn't do any road gigs for a little bit? That's the type of real-life thing that doesn't get told in the general history, and understandably so. But still, it would affect the chronology if true. Sonny's Jazz Gallery residency was November of 1961, before Miles' stint. and was pretty hi-profile: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1961/11/18/sabbatical-2 I don't see him doing a sextet gig, sorry... so I'm buying that Miles' Diary book to see what it has, it goes through 1961, which should tell us all we think we want to know. Maybe.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted June 3, 2020 Report Share Posted June 3, 2020 44 minutes ago, JSngry said: I'd have to think that if Sonny had played more than a night or two with Miles before he officially resurfaced that word would have gotten out fast and the grapevine would be abuzz quicker that you could say Robertson Caruso. The only variable would be in what city it would have been and for how many sets. If we want to take the chronology as literal (and I'm not sure that I do...), let's Sherlock this shit - Sonny returned to public performance in November of 1961 to much attention. If we're going to look at Sonny doing a few gigs/sets with Miles as a "warmup" to that, and if this was supposed to have happened after Hank left the band, well, Hank supposedly(?) stayed with Miles until early 1962 (that does not at all seem accurate, btw). so...would he have covered for Hank on a gig, or even a set or two? "Unpredictable lives", etc...but still. Also, Rocky Boyd...generally reported to have taken Hank's place for three months after Hank left in 1961?!?!?! Losin has this: Hank Mobley joined the Davis Quintet in late 1960 and immediately hit the road: Cloister Club, Chicago (December 26-January 8); Bradford Hotel Storyville Room, Boston (January 23-28); a live jazz program for Chicago's WMBI-FM (February 6); Kleinhans Music Hall, Buffalo (February 25); Village Vanguard, New York (February 28-March 12); Shrine Auditorium, Los Angeles (March 31); Blackhawk Supper Club, San Francisco (April 4-30); Foster's House of Jazz, Detroit (May 25-28). and this: After the flurry of Columbia studio activity and live recording in the spring of 1961, Davis was relatively inactive during 1961-1962. He was evidently unhappy with Hank Mobley, though he did not replace him until sometime the following year. J.J. Johnson was added to the group as another solo voice, and the Sextet was booked at the Club Renaissance, Los Angeles (October 12-19); Minor Key Club, Detroit (December 7-10); Jazz Gallery, New York (December 21, 1961-January 3, 1962); Howard Theatre, Washington (January 12-18 -- Johnson apparently did not make this gig); Indiana University Auditorium (March 24 -- a benefit for the Indiana NAACP for which Davis did not show!); April 17-22, Village Vanguard, New York; May 19-28, Mardi Gras, Kansas City; June 1-10, Music Box Theatre, Los Angeles; June 12-July 1, Blackhawk Supper Club, San Francisco; July 4-10, The Penthouse, Seattle; August 16-19, Minor Key, Detroit; August 24-25, La Comédie Canadienne, Montreal (Davis filled in for an ailing Sonny Rollins for the August 25 matinée); September 17-22, Showboat, Philadelphia; November 13-19, Village Vanguard, New York. A four-night engagement at the Music Box Club, Cleveland (December 6-9) was canceled and rescheduled for December 27-30. Mobley is still listed as the saxophonist at the end of 1962. So...when did Rocky Boyd's three months come? And where would Sonny have popped in with no fanfare to play a set or two, maybe even a night or two? There's a window between June-mid-October of 1961 that's not documented by this chronology, and maybe that's where Rocky Boyd stepped in for three months? Maybe Hank was "having problems" and couldn't do any road gigs for a little bit? That's the type of real-life thing that doesn't get told in the general history, and understandably so. But still, it would affect the chronology if true. Sonny's Jazz Gallery residency was November of 1961, before Miles' stint. and was pretty hi-profile: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1961/11/18/sabbatical-2 I don't see him doing a sextet gig, sorry... so I'm buying that Miles' Diary book to see what it has, it goes through 1961, which should tell us all we think we want to know. Maybe.. It only goes through May of 1961--I have it at the office and checked earlier today, though I didn't give it a thorough reading... was just disappointed that it stopped at May. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted June 3, 2020 Report Share Posted June 3, 2020 Haven't followed all the details of this topic but I have a pic somewhere from around this time of a front line of Miles, JJ and Sonny Stitt. I think it was in a Down Beat Yearbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 3, 2020 Report Share Posted June 3, 2020 7 minutes ago, ghost of miles said: It only goes through May of 1961--I have it at the office and checked earlier today, though I didn't give it a thorough reading... was just disappointed that it stopped at May. Well, i already ordered it, so...too bad about that. But I do think a picture emerges of a period in which Miles continued to be bored, and possibly self-indulgent/sloppy. Probably a lot of extra-musical considerations there, I think any musical ones would be documented. So I'm thinning if there were gigs at all, they were either highly "local", like in Brooklyn or someplace, or a weekend in someplace like Detroit, Cleveland, Philly., something for a quick and easy paycheck. But maybe not even that. Maybe he jsut didn't do anything for a few months for whatever reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted June 3, 2020 Report Share Posted June 3, 2020 Who is Rocky Boyd ??? About Sonny Stitt after Hank Mobley, I think they played in UK, since there is something written about it in a book about Paul Chambers. Sonny Stitt seemed to have been quite a mean guy at that time, from what I have read. Normally I love everything Sonny Stitt did, but not what he did with Miles, it didn´t fit in, and the weakest thing was "So What". Sonny Stitt just didn´t know what to play on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted June 3, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2020 2 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said: Haven't followed all the details of this topic but I have a pic somewhere from around this time of a front line of Miles, JJ and Sonny Stitt. I think it was in a Down Beat Yearbook. That lineup played the Sutherland Lounge. Didn't hear it myself, but a friend of mine did. Rocky Boyd was an interesting, albeit rather stylized, neo-Trane tenor man who recorded with Kenny Dorham IIRC. Frank Haynes was another such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted June 3, 2020 Report Share Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) This Rocky Boyd album has occasionally been reissued as a Kenny Dorham album. Edited June 3, 2020 by felser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted June 3, 2020 Report Share Posted June 3, 2020 I've figured out something else about this whole query, but it may only muddy the waters even more. In the meantime, any idea of when/where this photo of Miles and Sonny Rollins was taken? ...and here's a whole series of photos of Miles, Hank, J.J. and the trio at the Birdhouse in Chicago, September 1961 (dated by Laird Scott, apparently, who took the photos, so I presume that's accurate): Miles Davis Sextet at the Birdhouse, September 1961 One sample: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted June 3, 2020 Report Share Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) So I think both Early and Blumenthal's source may be Miles himself, via his autobiography. (Sorry to kick that particular hornet's nest!) Here are several references from the 1990 paperback edition: pg. 256: "Hank Mobley left the band in 1961 and I replaced him for a hot minute with a guy named Rocky Boyd, but he didn't work out either." pg. 257: "In 1962, J.J. Johnson was available, and Sonny Rollins came back and made some gigs, so I got a real good sextet together with Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers, Jimmy Cobb, and myself, and we went out on the road. We played Chicago--this was the middle of May--and we went through East St. Louis to see my father. He wasn't feeling too good. Frances had come out with us to see her parents in Chicago, so she was with us, too." (Note: the Losin passage quoted above doesn't mention this May 1962 Chicago gig, but it would seem to line up between the April NYC Village Vanguard dates and the late May performances at the Mardi Gras in Kansas City. In his autobiography Miles mentions playing Kansas City after the Chicago gig and the visit to his father in East St. Louis) pg. 261: "We finished playing Chicago in December 1962--myself, Wynton, Paul, J.J., and Jimmy Cobb; Jimmy Heath came in for one gig taking the place of Sonny Rollins, who left again to form his own group and to go back and woodshed some more. I think it was around this time that he was supposed to be heard practicing on the Brooklyn Bridge high up in the girders; at least that's what everyone was saying. Everybody except me and Jimmy Cobb were talking about leaving the band either to make some more money or to go out on their own to play their own music. The rhythm section wanted to work as a trio led by Wynton, and J.J. wanted to stay around L.A. because he could make a lot of money doing studio gigs and be home with his family. That left just Jimmy Cobb and me, and that wasn't enough to make a band." Well, OK, that last passage--pace Miles' "Brooklyn Bridge" remark (and yes, I know it was actually the Williamsburg Bridge), Sonny was already a full year back from his sabbatical by the end of 1962. Given how busy he seems to have been with his already-formed quartet that year, it's hard for me to imagine him doing any kind of multi-gig stint with Miles. So is Miles confusing Sonny R in his memory with Sonny Stitt? That also seems like quite a stretch, and a perusal of the booklet for the Sonny Stitt Roost Mosaic box, which spends some time discussing Stitt's activities in 1962, makes no mention of his playing with Miles. But Larry has a friend who recalls seeing Stitt and J.J. with Miles at the Sutherlin--ostensibly this beginning-of-1963 booking that Losin mentions, and to which Miles is apparently referring to as having taken place in December 1962? So maybe it was indeed Sonny Stitt, and Miles was misremembering (or the much-maligned Mr. Troupe got them mixed up... check the transcripts, right? ) Or maybe Sonny R did pop in for a "hot minute" and then popped right back out. I don't have any Sonny R biographies, and iirc there isn't really a good one available, is there? Miles' remark about Sonny R forming his own group could be a reference to the quartet with Don Cherry, which supplanted the 1962 quartet with Jim Hall, so I suppose that could be added to any case to be made for Rollins' actually having made some 1962 appearances with Davis. >>A two-week engagement at Chicago's Sutherland Lounge, January 30-February 10 (Wednesday-Sunday) was followed by the sudden departure of Wynton Kelly and Paul Chambers.<< Anyway, that's my further jazz-detective contribution to this puzzle. Obviously it would be great if any of us knew Sonny well enough to give him a ring and ask! Edited June 3, 2020 by ghost of miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted June 3, 2020 Report Share Posted June 3, 2020 There might be a way to get questions to Sonny. Send me an email and we can brainstorm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted June 3, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2020 1 hour ago, ghost of miles said: So I think both Early and Blumenthal's source may be Miles himself, via his autobiography. (Sorry to kick that particular hornet's nest!) Here are several references from the 1990 paperback edition: pg. 256: "Hank Mobley left the band in 1961 and I replaced him for a hot minute with a guy named Rocky Boyd, but he didn't work out either." pg. 257: "In 1962, J.J. Johnson was available, and Sonny Rollins came back and made some gigs, so I got a real good sextet together with Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers, Jimmy Cobb, and myself, and we went out on the road. We played Chicago--this was the middle of May--and we went through East St. Louis to see my father. He wasn't feeling too good. Frances had come out with us to see her parents in Chicago, so she was with us, too." (Note: the Losin passage quoted above doesn't mention this May 1962 Chicago gig, but it would seem to line up between the April NYC Village Vanguard dates and the late May performances at the Mardi Gras in Kansas City. In his autobiography Miles mentions playing Kansas City after the Chicago gig and the visit to his father in East St. Louis) pg. 261: "We finished playing Chicago in December 1962--myself, Wynton, Paul, J.J., and Jimmy Cobb; Jimmy Heath came in for one gig taking the place of Sonny Rollins, who left again to form his own group and to go back and woodshed some more. I think it was around this time that he was supposed to be heard practicing on the Brooklyn Bridge high up in the girders; at least that's what everyone was saying. Everybody except me and Jimmy Cobb were talking about leaving the band either to make some more money or to go out on their own to play their own music. The rhythm section wanted to work as a trio led by Wynton, and J.J. wanted to stay around L.A. because he could make a lot of money doing studio gigs and be home with his family. That left just Jimmy Cobb and me, and that wasn't enough to make a band." Well, OK, that last passage--pace Miles' "Brooklyn Bridge" remark (and yes, I know it was actually the Williamsburg Bridge), Sonny was already a full year back from his sabbatical by the end of 1962. Given how busy he seems to have been with his already-formed quartet that year, it's hard for me to imagine him doing any kind of multi-gig stint with Miles. So is Miles confusing Sonny R in his memory with Sonny Stitt? That also seems like quite a stretch, and a perusal of the booklet for the Sonny Stitt Roost Mosaic box, which spends some time discussing Stitt's activities in 1962, makes no mention of his playing with Miles. But Larry has a friend who recalls seeing Stitt and J.J. with Miles at the Sutherlin--ostensibly this beginning-of-1963 booking that Losin mentions, and to which Miles is apparently referring to as having taken place in December 1962? So maybe it was indeed Sonny Stitt, and Miles was misremembering (or the much-maligned Mr. Troupe got them mixed up... check the transcripts, right? ) Or maybe Sonny R did pop in for a "hot minute" and then popped right back out. I don't have any Sonny R biographies, and iirc there isn't really a good one available, is there? Miles' remark about Sonny R forming his own group could be a reference to the quartet with Don Cherry, which supplanted the 1962 quartet with Jim Hall, so I suppose that could be added to any case to be made for Rollins' actually having made some 1962 appearances with Davis. >>A two-week engagement at Chicago's Sutherland Lounge, January 30-February 10 (Wednesday-Sunday) was followed by the sudden departure of Wynton Kelly and Paul Chambers.<< Anyway, that's my further jazz-detective contribution to this puzzle. Obviously it would be great if any of us knew Sonny well enough to give him a ring and ask! For Quincy Troupe and/or the drones who transcribed Miles' interview tapes for Troupe to confuse Sonny Stitt with Sonny Rollins is not a stretch at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 3, 2020 Report Share Posted June 3, 2020 1 hour ago, ghost of miles said: So I think both Early and Blumenthal's source may be Miles himself, via his autobiography. (Sorry to kick that particular hornet's nest!) Here are several references from the 1990 paperback edition: pg. 256: "Hank Mobley left the band in 1961 and I replaced him for a hot minute with a guy named Rocky Boyd, but he didn't work out either." pg. 257: "In 1962, J.J. Johnson was available, and Sonny Rollins came back and made some gigs, so I got a real good sextet together with Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers, Jimmy Cobb, and myself, and we went out on the road. We played Chicago--this was the middle of May--and we went through East St. Louis to see my father. He wasn't feeling too good. Frances had come out with us to see her parents in Chicago, so she was with us, too." (Note: the Losin passage quoted above doesn't mention this May 1962 Chicago gig, but it would seem to line up between the April NYC Village Vanguard dates and the late May performances at the Mardi Gras in Kansas City. In his autobiography Miles mentions playing Kansas City after the Chicago gig and the visit to his father in East St. Louis) pg. 261: "We finished playing Chicago in December 1962--myself, Wynton, Paul, J.J., and Jimmy Cobb; Jimmy Heath came in for one gig taking the place of Sonny Rollins, who left again to form his own group and to go back and woodshed some more. I think it was around this time that he was supposed to be heard practicing on the Brooklyn Bridge high up in the girders; at least that's what everyone was saying. Everybody except me and Jimmy Cobb were talking about leaving the band either to make some more money or to go out on their own to play their own music. The rhythm section wanted to work as a trio led by Wynton, and J.J. wanted to stay around L.A. because he could make a lot of money doing studio gigs and be home with his family. That left just Jimmy Cobb and me, and that wasn't enough to make a band." Well, OK, that last passage--pace Miles' "Brooklyn Bridge" remark (and yes, I know it was actually the Williamsburg Bridge), Sonny was already a full year back from his sabbatical by the end of 1962. Given how busy he seems to have been with his already-formed quartet that year, it's hard for me to imagine him doing any kind of multi-gig stint with Miles. So is Miles confusing Sonny R in his memory with Sonny Stitt? That also seems like quite a stretch, and a perusal of the booklet for the Sonny Stitt Roost Mosaic box, which spends some time discussing Stitt's activities in 1962, makes no mention of his playing with Miles. But Larry has a friend who recalls seeing Stitt and J.J. with Miles at the Sutherlin--ostensibly this beginning-of-1963 booking that Losin mentions, and to which Miles is apparently referring to as having taken place in December 1962? So maybe it was indeed Sonny Stitt, and Miles was misremembering (or the much-maligned Mr. Troupe got them mixed up... check the transcripts, right? ) Or maybe Sonny R did pop in for a "hot minute" and then popped right back out. I don't have any Sonny R biographies, and iirc there isn't really a good one available, is there? Miles' remark about Sonny R forming his own group could be a reference to the quartet with Don Cherry, which supplanted the 1962 quartet with Jim Hall, so I suppose that could be added to any case to be made for Rollins' actually having made some 1962 appearances with Davis. >>A two-week engagement at Chicago's Sutherland Lounge, January 30-February 10 (Wednesday-Sunday) was followed by the sudden departure of Wynton Kelly and Paul Chambers.<< Anyway, that's my further jazz-detective contribution to this puzzle. Obviously it would be great if any of us knew Sonny well enough to give him a ring and ask! Ok, Sonny being between bands in 1962, Miles having a gig but no tenor player, Sonny filling in for a quick minute, that makes at least some kind of sense, But none of the rest of any of this does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 4, 2020 Report Share Posted June 4, 2020 9 hours ago, ghost of miles said: In the meantime, any idea of when/where this photo of Miles and Sonny Rollins was taken? Flugelhorn, styles..1957-58? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted June 4, 2020 Report Share Posted June 4, 2020 Found my Miles diary. It seems to end at the May 1961 Carnegie Hall concert, so can probably not be of help for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted June 4, 2020 Report Share Posted June 4, 2020 5 hours ago, JSngry said: Flugelhorn, styles..1957-58? The strange Thing is Miles Looks much heftier here than I have him in mind, I saw Miles Always more as quite a thin and skinny guy….. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stryker Posted June 4, 2020 Report Share Posted June 4, 2020 13 hours ago, JSngry said: Flugelhorn, styles..1957-58? That's a concert hall not a club. Those copper tubs with the glare are timpani. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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