Eric Dolphy on Blue Note?

[danasgoodstuff]

43 minutes ago, gmonahan said:

I wonder about that. "Blue Trane" was recorded right in the middle of Trane's Prestige sessions.

 

 

gregmo

Perhaps they were able to work some kind of deal where someone on the BN roster did something for Prestige - those two labels had lots of overlap, did they not?

[Son Of Ice Bag]

Pete LaRoca, Basra. 

One of the finest albums I know.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

28 minutes ago, Son Of Ice Bag said:

Pete LaRoca, Basra. 

One of the finest albums I know.

 

It is indeed lovely.  And may have actually been intended as a one off, maybe as a sort of thankyou for his sideman work.  Same with Art Taylor's one leader date for the label.  apparently Joe Chambers was offered a leader date and turned it down.  Both chambers and LaRoca did dates for the label decades later, but post-revival is really a different deal.

[Daniel A]

23 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

Perhaps they were able to work some kind of deal where someone on the BN roster did something for Prestige - those two labels had lots of overlap, did they not?

"Sometime in late 1956 or early 1957, John Coltrane visited Blue Note Records to pick up some Sidney Bechet albums. Alfred Lion was alone in the office and asked Coltrane if he'd like to make an album. Coltrane agreed and took an advance check. Alfred told him to come back to meet Francis Wolff and to draw up a contract.

Months later, Coltrane ended up signing with Prestige Records, but he felt he had to honor his promise to Alfred and so on September 15, 1957, he made his one and only album for Blue Note. Not coincidentally, Blue Train was his first bonafide masterpiece."

 

https://www.morrisonhotelgallery.com/merchandise/default.aspx?merchandizeID=62

[cliffpeterson]

J.R. Monterose, Sheila Jordan, Dodo Greene

[bertrand]

9 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

It is indeed lovely.  And may have actually been intended as a one off, maybe as a sort of thankyou for his sideman work.  Same with Art Taylor's one leader date for the label.  apparently Joe Chambers was offered a leader date and turned it down.  Both chambers and LaRoca did dates for the label decades later, but post-revival is really a different deal.

Joe Chambers didn't turn it down but just spaced out and didn't follow through.

[Son Of Ice Bag]

16 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

It is indeed lovely.  And may have actually been intended as a one off, maybe as a sort of thankyou for his sideman work.  Same with Art Taylor's one leader date for the label.  apparently Joe Chambers was offered a leader date and turned it down.  Both chambers and LaRoca did dates for the label decades later, but post-revival is really a different deal.

Hart to believe it was a thankyou.

LaRoca backed only 10 Blue-Note-recordings from the late 1950s to the early 1960s. 10 Blue Notes out of 500.

[JSngry]

The presence of Steves Kuhn & Swallow was a bit of an outlier for the Blue Note of this period as well.

[felser]

23 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

post-revival is really a different deal.

[danasgoodstuff]

11 hours ago, JSngry said:

The presence of Steves Kuhn & Swallow was a bit of an outlier for the Blue Note of this period as well.

Yes, in some ways the most unusual thing about that album.

11 hours ago, Son Of Ice Bag said:

Hart to believe it was a thankyou.

LaRoca backed only 10 Blue-Note-recordings from the late 1950s to the early 1960s. 10 Blue Notes out of 500.

Many someone put a bug in Alfred's ear about how good Pete's tunes were?  Or maybe it was something else.  Or maybe they'd hoped to do more but things changed.

[JSngry]

It was Art Farmer's band at the time. Maybe Albert was not fully "convinced" by the "flavor".

[bertrand]

There's a feature in Jazz Times on Basra and Steve Swallow gives his recollections. He also accuses Alfred Lion of stealing the publishing for Eiderdown.

[mikeweil]

On 7.12.2020 at 1:43 PM, JSngry said:

It was Art Farmer's band at the time. Maybe Albert was not fully "convinced" by the "flavor".

And Farmer appeared even less often on Blue Note albums.

[Gheorghe]

5 hours ago, mikeweil said:

And Farmer appeared even less often on Blue Note albums.

Now without thinking, I can mention Horace Silver´s "Further Explorations".

[mjzee]

On 12/5/2020 at 5:29 PM, cliffpeterson said:

J.R. Monterose, Sheila Jordan, Dodo Greene

There were other Dodo Greene BN sessions, fully documented on the CD release of her album.

[Dub Modal]

7 hours ago, bertrand said:

There's a feature in Jazz Times on Basra and Steve Swallow gives his recollections. He also accuses Alfred Lion of stealing the publishing for Eiderdown.

That was a shady move. Would that some wealthy benefactor could help him buy that back. 

[JSngry]

https://jazztimes.com/features/columns/steve-swallow-pete-la-roca/

Another song on the date is my piece, ‘Eiderdown,’ which is actually the first recording of one of my compositions. It’s also the only tune of mine that I don’t own. Alfred Lion snatched it right out of my hands. After the date had been done, I got a phone call from Alfred and he said, ‘Oh, by the way, “Eiderdown,” who is publishing that?’ I had no idea what he was talking about. I said, ‘Gee, I don’t know.’ Alfred said, ‘No problem.’ He then proceeded to offer me this ‘wonderful’ deal. He would publish it for me and take care of everything and I wouldn’t have to worry about a thing. I was so grateful. ‘Gee, Alfred. Thank you so much.’ I haven’t been able to get that tune back after all these years. Blue Note sold it, it’s gone around, and some big conglomerate owns it now. I keep trying to buy it back because it has been recorded fairly often. 

“That’s another kind of Blue Note story. It is a great blessing to jazz that Blue Note existed, but on the business side they were also sort of gangsters

This is not the only story about Lion (and other indie owners) playing hardball with publishing...Ronny Boykins claimed that Horace Parlan was dropped from the label because of Parlan baking him on his insistence on keeping the publication on his two tunes the date they did together, the record that is now known as Happy Frame Of Mind.

Publishing is a tricky game, and for indie label owners, it had a real impact on margins. So "stole" is maybe a strong word..."forcible leverage" is not.

fwiw, a look around shows that there have also been two other publishers listed for the tune, both involving "buns". Go figure.

https://imgv2-1-f.scribdassets.com/img/document/134300150/original/5f11b891f5/1596543262?v=1 shows "Wonderbuns"

and then this. "Soft Buns":

[mikeweil]

2 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

Now without thinking, I can mention Horace Silver´s "Further Explorations".

..... and a Hank Mobley Quintet LP.

[JSngry]

God, does nobody remember Cool Struttin'?

[medjuck]

8 hours ago, bertrand said:

There's a feature in Jazz Times on Basra and Steve Swallow gives his recollections. He also accuses Alfred Lion of stealing the publishing for Eiderdown.

In his autobiography Herbie Hancock relates that Donald Byrd advised him to play hardball with Lion re: publishing.  He did, and as a result owned the publishing on Watermelon Man.  With the money he made from it he bought (IIRC) a Jaguar XKE.  

BTW I believe (perhaps incorrectly) that the songwriters always get 50% of any income the publisher receives.  But the publisher controls the musics usage. 

[JSngry]

30 minutes ago, medjuck said:

BTW I believe (perhaps incorrectly) that the songwriters always get 50% of any income the publisher receives.  But the publisher controls the musics usage. 

50% is half of 100%, right? Double the money if you get it all.

50% sounds like a lot, but it's only half of the money. On either side, label or artist, that's a sizeable difference if/when things get real, and perhaps a meaningful one even if they don't.

And yes, Donald Byrd taught a lot of people about the music business.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

35 minutes ago, medjuck said:

With the money he made from it he bought (IIRC) a Jaguar XKE. 

Isn't that more like "With the money he made from Mongo Santamaria's hit record, he bought a AC Shelby Cobra".

BTW - that car is worth a mint today. It's probably worth close to $3 Million by now.

[JSngry]

LOTS of people covered "Watermelon Man", and Herbie got paid every time (or should have).

https://secondhandsongs.com/performance/20707

this list may not be comprehensive. probably isn't.

that's why publishing matters. Even if a song is a small/cult hit, if it gets recorded (and back in the day, when it literally got published, like, sheet music), publishing should get paid. and 50% is half of $100%, so...what would you want, half or whole?

oh, ASCAP/BMI etc...public performances should be included, especially for "shows", but also, supposedly-but-not-really, club dates.

[Daniel A]

According to Herbie, he got the car at age 22 after receiving his first royalty check, and Santamaria's version was released at some point during 1963, probably after he got the car. But no doubt he made more money on the tune.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Daniel A

[JSngry]

Herbie's made a lot of money from his music in a lot of ways.