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Rabshakeh

Neo-bop / Young Lions records that you still listen to

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What's a young lion? A very young jazz musician who got a record contract in the 1980s/early 1990s, perhaps before they were mature enough to deserve one? Do I listen to them today checklist.

Wynton Marsalis: No

Branford Marsalis: No

Terence Blanchard: Yes

Nicholas Payton: Yes

Roy Hargrove: Yes

Wallace Roney: Maybe

Kenny Garrett: Yes

Bobby Watson: Yes

Philip Harper: Yes

Donald Harrison: Yes

Winard Harper: Yes

James Carter: Yes

Mulgrew Miller: Yes

Kenny Kirkland: Yes.

Kent Jordan: Yes

Mark Whitfield: Yes

Kevin Eubanks: Yes

Marcus Roberts: Yes

Charnett Moffett: Yes

 

 

 

Edited by kh1958

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I'm not sure whether it fits the "Young Lions" category, but I still love the music from the last incarnation of Arthur Taylor's Wailers.  It features then young and upcoming players -- Abraham Burton and Willie Williams on saxes, Marc Cary or Jacky Terrasson on piano, Tyler Mitchell on bass, and Art Taylor himself on drums.  AFAIK there are 2 albums from 1991 -- Mr. A.T.  and Wailin' at The Vanguard. Both are good, but I like the latter (cool jacket photo!).  Authentic and very much lively hardbop.  It's pity that Art couldn't hold this group long enough.

 

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Edited by mhatta

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1 hour ago, kh1958 said:

What's a young lion? A very young jazz musician who got a record contract in the 1980s/early 1990s, perhaps before they were mature enough to deserve one? Do I listen to them today checklist.

Wynton Marsalis: No

Branford Marsalis: No

Terence Blanchard: Yes

Nicholas Payton: Yes

Roy Hargrove: Yes

Wallace Roney: Maybe

Kenny Garrett: Yes

Bobby Watson: Yes

Philip Harper: Yes

Donald Harrison: Yes

Winard Harper: Yes

James Carter: Yes

Mulgrew Miller: Yes

Kenny Kirkland: Yes.

Kent Jordan: Yes

Mark Whitfield: Yes

Kevin Eubanks: Yes

Marcus Roberts: Yes

Charnett Moffett: Yes

 

 

 

I have around 11,000 lps and cds currently (jazz, classical, blues and rock/r&b. I have not kept any leader dates by anyone on this list. I thought I might have still had a promo of a Kenny Garrett Criss Cross date, but it is gone. Nothing against these folks, just not interested.

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41 minutes ago, Chuck Nessa said:

I have around 11,000 lps and cds currently (jazz, classical, blues and rock/r&b. I have not kept any leader dates by anyone on this list. I thought I might have still had a promo of a Kenny Garrett Criss Cross date, but it is gone. Nothing against these folks, just not interested.

Great. Not interested in your opinion.

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4 hours ago, duaneiac said:

Wasn't Roy Hargrove deemed to be part of that Young Lions group?  I still listen to, and love, his recordings.  Cyrus Chestnut too.  And Winard Harper -- he made several very good recordings back in the day that are worth rehearing.  I have not heard much from him recently though.

Yeah, Hargrove's With Tenors Of Our Time was honestly the first record I thought of when I saw this thread.  Though I don't think I've listened to it since around the time of his death two years ago.  Branford Marsalis' Bloomington, some early James Carters, Geri Allen (does she count as a "Young Lion"?  Age-wise, I mean, and I think she does, given 1957 birth year) are all CDs and artists that I've listened to relatively recently that would fit into this topic.  Kenny Garrett circa Pursuance and Songbook.  But in general I haven't found myself exploring or re-exploring that era/genre all that often.  Maybe at some point... there's always interesting or good material from nearly any phase that eventually merits discovery or re-discovery.  I guess it's a variant of "the more you know, the less you know..."  the more I listen to all eras and genres of jazz, the more I realize how much I haven't heard (or need to hear again).  This board's a blessing and a curse in that regard, in contributing to my curiosity.  (Well, much more blessing... or a curse of knowledge and illumination that I'm blessed to have.  :)  )

Edit:  meant to add that Mark Stryker's excellent Jazz From Detroit book also inspired me to pick up and listen to some recordings by Detroit artists, in addition to Allen and Garrett, who meet this generational/stylistic definition.  

Edited by ghost of miles

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21 minutes ago, kh1958 said:

Great. Not interested in your opinion.

Thanks. I was answering the original question. Read the initial post. I don't need this crap.

Good bye.

Edited by Chuck Nessa

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I find it interesting that a fair few of the responses above highlight the late 80s and early/mid 90s generation as having explored and improved upon the sound and style of the early/mid 80s set (with which this thread is concerned, call them what you will), and that it is the chronologically later musicians to which people find themselves returning, 20-30 years on, rather than the actual "Young Lions".

I suppose it's somewhat ironic, given that the "Young Lions" have assumed a form of canonicity which the following generation did not - perhaps that's because they never had a snappy marketing line and major label interest. Perhaps if they had been billed as "The Younger Tigers" and released on EMI they would have a similar standing. Who knows.

Personally, aside from Terence Blanchard, I had never felt much of an urge to explore the earlier neo-boppers, but I'm going to revisit the records that have been mentioned in this thread. 

I'm probably more intrigued, though, by the idea of exploring the following generation of neo-bop / straight ahead musicians that are spoken of more highly, as I really know very little about them. 

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6 hours ago, mhatta said:

I'm not sure whether it fits the "Young Lions" category, but I still love the music from the last incarnation of Arthur Taylor's Wailers.  It features then young and upcoming players -- Abraham Burton and Willie Williams on saxes, Marc Cary or Jacky Terrasson on piano, Tyler Mitchell on bass, and Art Taylor himself on drums.  AFAIK there are 2 albums from 1991 -- Mr. A.T.  and Wailin' at The Vanguard. Both are good, but I like the latter (cool jacket photo!).  Authentic and very much lively hardbop.  It's pity that Art couldn't hold this group long enough.

 

I didn't know this one. I like it.

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If it counts, I'd throw in this one

R-4051828-1353624128-7687.jpeg.jpg

Abraham Burton / Eric McPherson - Cause and Effect... they did come up through bands like Art Taylor's at approximately the right time but they are evidently not wearing suits... and Greg Osby's Banned in New York (not really a young lion, but clearly a postbop album), I also like some people from BIllF's list like Joe Magnarelli or Peter Bernstein... A postbop scene I really liked was the one around Luke Kaven's (original) Smalls Label released a bit later but still documenting a bop scene from the 90s iirc, some older artists like Gil Coggins or Frank Hewitt, some younger ones like Sacha Perry or William Ash... Ash's The Phoenix was a nice album for instance... (but Ash is otherwise a worse example than e.g. Perry because he's really too young)  there are some old threads on this board re that scene

R-11888548-1524164673-2414.jpeg.jpg

 

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6 hours ago, kh1958 said:

Great. Not interested in your opinion.

What opinion? He just stated that he doesn't listen to these musicians output. He didn't write why. That would be an opinion.

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617sUuHeQVL.jpg71d1ODsBEvL._SL1237_.jpg

I used to go back to this one on occasion, but god, it's been maybe 5-10 years since the last time.

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2 hours ago, Niko said:

If it counts, I'd throw in this one

R-4051828-1353624128-7687.jpeg.jpg

Abraham Burton / Eric McPherson - Cause and Effect... they did come up through bands like Art Taylor's at approximately the right time but they are evidently not wearing suits... and Greg Osby's Banned in New York (not really a young lion, but clearly a postbop album), I also like some people from BIllF's list like Joe Magnarelli or Peter Bernstein... A postbop scene I really liked was the one around Luke Kaven's (original) Smalls Label released a bit later but still documenting a bop scene from the 90s iirc, some older artists like Gil Coggins or Frank Hewitt, some younger ones like Sacha Perry or William Ash... Ash's The Phoenix was a nice album for instance... (but Ash is otherwise a worse example than e.g. Perry because he's really too young)  there are some old threads on this board re that scene

R-11888548-1524164673-2414.jpeg.jpg

 

That is a label that put out some great stuff but is impossible to find out what they released. I usually stumble upon it in used bins. I tried a couple times to find discography for the label to no avail. Possible due to the label name. 

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2 minutes ago, jcam_44 said:

That is a label that put out some great stuff but is impossible to find out what they released. I usually stumble upon it in used bins. I tried a couple times to find discography for the label to no avail. Possible due to the label name. 

See if this helps: http://www.smallsrecords.com/shop.htm

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2 hours ago, JSngry said:

617sUuHeQVL.jpg71d1ODsBEvL._SL1237_.jpg

I used to go back to this one on occasion, but god, it's been maybe 5-10 years since the last time.

I do enjoy that one as well as the other New Orleans inspired Spirit of Congo Square and The New Sound of Mardi Gras. I think of all I listen to Kenny Kirkland’s self titled album the most frequently. That album is fantastic!

7 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Holy crap. How did I not find this site? Thanks!

 

edit: I have Ruslan Khain’s album on this label and it’s not listed on the site. It’s SRCD-0037. Nice $3 find bought strictly off the strength of the label. 

Edited by jcam_44

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These young lions entered the scene around the time I started immersing myself in jazz. I was aware at the time that their output was being criticised for lacking originality. I did pick up a few bits and pieces at the time but very little has stayed with me. I've off-loaded a fair few but kept a smattering , I still like Kenny Garrett's Warner discs, the Art Taylor Vanguard disc referred to above and a Ralph Moore Criss Cross date.  Looking back I think the criticisms were accurate these musicians didn't bring enough originality to much of what was recorded in this period. 

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18 hours ago, BillF said:

I think the people I listen a great deal to are from a slightly later generation: Eric Alexander, Jim Rotondi, David Hazeltine, John Webber, Joe Farnsworth, Kenny Washington, Peter Washington, Dmitry Baevsky, Mike DiRubbo, Dwayne Burno, Grant Stewart, John Swana, Peter Bernstein, Vincent Herring, Mike LeDonne, Joe Magnarelli.

 

I agree with Bill's list, and would add a few more like Mulgrew Miller, Ralph Moore, Eric Reed and James Williams.

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As already mentioned I had great expectations for Charnett Moffett .... but things turned out differently ....

P.S Still keeping as guilty pleasure - btw not a young lions" thing at all - the initial self titled Manhattan Jazz Quintet release on Paddle Wheel Japan feat George Young (ts) + Lew Soloff (tp) + David Matthews (p) + Charnett Moffett (b) + Steve Gadd (dr) ....

Edited by soulpope

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1 hour ago, Clunky said:

Looking back I think the criticisms were accurate these musicians didn't bring enough originality to much of what was recorded in this period. 

Agreed. I started getting into jazz in my early teens in the 80s, and at that time I was largely unaware of the young lions. It was more Oscar Peterson/Red Garland/Miles Davis/Coltrane and then a lot of Blue Note. In the 90s I was sufficiently aware of the scene to catch the "second generation young lions", like Nicholas Payton, Christian McBride etc.

I don't listen to their own albums much these days, but the trio album with McBride and Payton is an exception. Whitfield is a bit bland, but I like the contributions of the other two:

61kiq1x9sBL._SL1000_.jpg

Edited by Daniel A

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4 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

Agreed. I started getting into jazz in my early teens in the 80s, and at that time I was largely unaware of the young lions. It was more Oscar Peterson/Red Garland/Miles Davis/Coltrane and then a lot of Blue Note. In the 90s I was sufficiently aware of the scene to catch the "second generation young lions", like Nicholas Payton, Christian McBride etc.

I don't listen to their own albums much these days, but the trio album with McBride and Paton is an exception. Whitfield is a bit bland, but I like the contributions of the other two:

61kiq1x9sBL._SL1000_.jpg

Yes, I remember liking and playing that one quite a lot when it first came out—thanks for reminding me of it.

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A similar album from around the same time that I remember liking (and I think I did listen to it again after Hargrove died):

R-2209691-1269977125.jpeg.jpg

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14 hours ago, kh1958 said:

What's a young lion? A very young jazz musician who got a record contract in the 1980s/early 1990s, perhaps before they were mature enough to deserve one? Do I listen to them today checklist.

Wynton Marsalis: No

Branford Marsalis: No

Terence Blanchard: Yes

Nicholas Payton: Yes

Roy Hargrove: Yes

Wallace Roney: Maybe

Kenny Garrett: Yes

Bobby Watson: Yes

Philip Harper: Yes

Donald Harrison: Yes

Winard Harper: Yes

James Carter: Yes

Mulgrew Miller: Yes

Kenny Kirkland: Yes.

Kent Jordan: Yes

Mark Whitfield: Yes

Kevin Eubanks: Yes

Marcus Roberts: Yes

Charnett Moffett: Yes

 

 

 

Still listen to and admire the late Mulgrew Miller, but IIRC he came up before the Young Lions promotional push and was mature from the first.

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Someone mentioned Greg Osby up above, and he’s certainly the right age —but in all seriousness, does anyone see any of the main (really “core”) M-BASE proponents as being “Young Lions”?? (In terms of the 80’s incarnation of that term.)

Steve Coleman is 4 years older than Greg Osby — but surely Steve Coleman wasn’t concerned a “Young Lion”, was he?

Age wasn’t the only definitional characteristic, was it?

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14 minutes ago, Rooster_Ties said:

Someone mentioned Greg Osby up above, and he’s certainly the right age —but in all seriousness, does anyone see any of the main (really “core”) M-BASE proponents as being “Young Lions”?? (In terms of the 80’s incarnation of that term.)

Steve Coleman is 4 years older than Greg Osby — but surely Steve Coleman wasn’t concerned a “Young Lion”, was he?

Age wasn’t the only definitional characteristic, was it?

Feels like a very different type of music.

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57 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

Still listen to and admire the late Mulgrew Miller, but IIRC he came up before the Young Lions promotional push and was mature from the first.

Same here--I don't tend to group him with the Young Lions, although his stint with Blakey in the mid-1980s might tend to encourage a glint of association with said artists.  But he'd already spent significant time with Betty Carter and Woody Shaw by the time he joined the Messengers, and musically he always struck me as less slavishly reverent towards previous styles than most of the Young Lions.

Edited by ghost of miles

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7 hours ago, Dmitry said:

What opinion? He just stated that he doesn't listen to these musicians output. He didn't write why. That would be an opinion.

I don't know; I think he was saying that he thinks everyone on the list I posted is worthless; hasn't he expressed the opinion that everyone who is not avant garde in jazz at this point is worthless?; further, I should agree because he has a bunch of CDs and records (as if everybody here doesn't have the same qualification). It's fine; he can listen to what he wants, it's not my business; I just find it annoying to see living musicians dismissed so cavalierly; my opinions were formed based on seeing all of the musicians live, most of them multiple times. I do find myself getting testy in this pandemic isolation, so pardon me for being grumpy.

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