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thirdtry

Wynton Kelly & Cecil Payne Live

52 posts in this topic

Not complicated. Aubrey Mayhew stuck his imprint on a bootleg. It's a truth that is self-evident.

Like Collectables gives a fuck. Their earliest days were full of all kinds of questionable R&B/Doo Wop releases. Very ground-level street commerce. Then they went legit, but although you can take the boy out of the country, you can't take the country out of the boy.

Again, not complicated.

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Posted (edited)

So how come no one (including the usual suspects) saw fit to name this as what it is from Day 1? A bootleg? If such concerns about bootleg (re)issues are such a moral quandary with so many (as seen in other discussions where the "is this legit" question seems to be a standard post).
After all such restraints do not seem to exist one second when it comes to European P.D. labels - even where they ABSOLUTELY comply with EUROPEAN P.D. laws (and where their ONLY fault from the angle of the major member base of this forum is that there are greedy Stateside importers and resellers who sell them ANYWAY in a country where strictly speaking this may be illegal), and even where there do not seem to be too many hesitations about raising unproven accusations of alleged illegality against first-time live recordings from European venues?
The overall picture of what is pointed out and what is tacitly hushed over still reeks of double standards to me. If you are so concerned about one and say so, be concerned about them all and say so. Not complicated either.
 

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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I don't know man, it's obviously a common, basic, street-level bootleg. Simple as that. Nothing to get wound up about, either buy it or find somebody who has bought it and get a copy from them.

Collectables has always carried the stain of their early days afaic. And Aubrey Mayhew long had an aura of questionablality afaic. So, yeah, not complicated. So common, so obvious.

 

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Posted (edited)

See, in that case it's the same with Fresh Sound, Blue Moon, Real Gone Jazz, Lone Hill or whatever other label in that league and in fact any P.D. label that takes advantage of European P.D. laws. So why get wound up about THEM over and over again? Particularly since they are NO bootlegs in all of Europe and are therefore all straight (questionable US importers' practices are the problem of the importers and their domestic clients). So common, so obvious.
Or is this a personal pet peeve?

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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There are no bootlegs in Europe?

Oh my!

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Posted (edited)

Dont be evasive. Of course there are. If the reissues violate the (non-retroactive) cutoff date applicable at the time the law was passed that increased the 50-year protection period well beyond those 50 years. I.e. some point in 1962 (convenient for McCartney, Cliff Richard and other zillion sellers with necessary clout) as the law was passed in 2012. But if they don't then THEY are legal (because the extended protection period does not apply retroactively beyond what had already fallen into the public domain after 50 years had elapsed in 2012). Not complicated.

Bootlegs may also exist if first-time releases of older recordings (or generally unauthorized material) are made where the music has not been cleared correctly. But mud slinging with nothing to back up the accusations of non-clearance (e.g in the case of those radio archive releases of older broadcasts or radio studio recordings) does not make a release a bootleg.
Particularly not as long as some seem to prefer to look the other way (or not) depending on where the release originates. That's double standards.

P.S. And read and understand correctly. I said "THEY" (the labels tha tmake use of the European P.D: law) are no bootlegs - anywhere in Europe. Not "there". Big difference. Easy to understand.

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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Look, the "dividing line" is simple - something like this is a simple bootleg, somebody had a tape and slapped a logo on it and got it out there. It's not a "record", it's a found object that somebody gangstered out to the street. End of story.

The other stuff, the PD stuff, not the same thing. By the very nature of its origin, not the same thing.

But it is settled legality in your part of the world. That horse done left the barn.

So the only decision that you, the consumer, has to make is a simple one - with any given product and what has gone into it's "production", am you getting value added or spending money subtracted? Seems to me like there's a lot of suckers getting suckered in that regard, but so be it, it's your money. And the ongoing devolution of the quality of the products (250,000 CDs on one diaper pin!!!!!!!!) speaks more to the lackings of the participants than it does to the rightness of the intent of the laws. After all, "freedom" is only as noble as the people exercising it, so if you buy crap, don't blame people when they keep selling it to you. Free market, baby, free market.

1 minute ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Particularly not as long as some seem to prefer to look the other way (or not) depending on where the release originates. That's double standards.

crying-baby-istock660.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Yes the decision is an easy but strictly personal one to make. Some prefer accessible, at least acceptably presented and packaged product to fill a gap and feel they are getting value added, some drool about first or Japan pressings and feel this is the only way to get value added, some just want the bits of digital downloads because they don't see any value added in tangible product, etc. And someone apparently saw fit to spend those $200+ asked on eBay for that lo-fi issue on Collectable just because it offers some "new" hard bop to listen to.
YMMV. And tastes differ. And whoever tries to pass judgment on this is just stating a personal, colored opinion (that obviously will be different from other persons' opinions, but so what?) but this "judgment" has NO lasting and permanent relevance or authority beyond the person who made that statement.

See, the other day I wanted a copy of "Another Opus" by Lem Winchester, but not badly enough to shell out for the inflated totals caused a.o. by outrageous overseas shipping costs on Discogs (and right now I don't really fancy overseas shipping if I can avoid it). (FWIW OJC reissue CDs are conspicuous by their absence on Discogs). I will stay on the lookout for a decently priced vinyl but for the time being I am well served by the Avid Jazz reissue that get me this plus three (!) of his other LPs for less than 10 EUR including shipping. 

So the European P.D. labels do offer added value (e.g. in this case vs the spotty availability of OJCs) because they go where US labels just fear to tread or don't bother to market because there is not enough $$$ in it for them. So as for whining about "Oh those US labels can't reissue this or that or everything else because the European PD labels have the market sewn up for that kind of product and we can't cope" - well...

40276092hp.jpg

This whining very, very often is pointless, because if they had really wanted to in the first place they could have reissued it in many ways to keep the market covered. So live with the fact that this global world is a door that swings both ways (in fact, many ways). Free market, baby, free market. ;)

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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20 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

 So live with the fact that this global world is a door that swings both ways (in fact, many ways). Free market, baby, free market. ;)

Who the hell are you talking to?

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The programme director of Original Jazz Classics? 

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I guess, I mean, I get shit from all over the world. Hardly a surprise that it's a "global world"!

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9 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

The programme director of Original Jazz Classics? 

:lol:

Ah, that would have been an idea ... Though in vain, given what happened through the years. But isn't this ONE reason why some fields were left wide open?

 

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At this day I'm not so confident if the US still has any sense of legality (or common sense) left ,or if just the business side remains.

Either way, I'm happily listening to this boot at this time, having just picked gotten it out of the mail box. There's a trumpet player present, too (and bass/drums, obviously).

--

Regarding the Davis sextet, Losin has an entry now:
http://www.plosin.com/MilesAhead/Sessions.aspx?s=600304

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Some comments:

#1 - labelled "Cecil's Back Home" (Payne) starts with a tiny bit of noodling, then a boppish line w/trumpet lead that sounds vaguely familiar (prob. based on a well-known/then-popular song)

#2 - labelled "Outta My Head for You" (Payne/Kelly) is a ballad feature for Payne, no trumpet, incomplete (segues right into #3 on disc)

#3 - "Confirmation", the Parker tune (info is correct), almost complete, again programmed to segue into the next track (guess that's what the odd remark on the backcover hints at: "Continuous: Time as whole rather than selections." - and I guess the "compiled" in "Compiled by Aubrey Mayhew" is meant in a quite literal sense).

#4 - "A Night in Tunisia", the Gillespie tune - wrongly labelled as "Kelly's Rhythm" (Kelly), incomplete again

#5 - labelled "Sounds of the Soul" (Kelly/Payne) is just a short segment (35 seconds) of an exalted lady talking to an off-mic dude.

#6 - labelled wrongly "52nd Street Theme" (Monk), but this is a ballad feature for the brassy trumpet player that I am familiar with but can't quite pin down right now. Payne plays some backings that sound almost tenor-like, but he goes deep a couple of times ... and someone sitting close to the taper is kinda singing a long for parts of this. Rough cut and some tape warble at the end, but this is complete.

#7 - "Keys of Kelly" (Kelly) this is not, it's another familiar tune, a bebop one I think, but alas I got so bad with recognizing tunes in the last years (too much classical plus no practicing myself for 10+ years now), at around 4:40 the speed starts lagging for close to 20 seconds, around 4:58 it picks up speed again but I'm not quite sure it's stable or picking up even more speed as it goes on. The same happens again during the piano solo

#8 - "Layin' Down" (Payne) starts with a few piano notes that seem unrelated (Monk?), five seconds in it cuts to "our" tape again. After Payne we get a bass solo, no trumpet here, incomplete again, and there's an extremely rough edit around 4:53, and then we get "52nd Street Blues" for a moment, but at 6:10 there's another very rough edit ... shining trumpet playing the final bits of "Body and Soul" (I think) with Payne in the background. So this final one inc + two theme song + three short bit track pretty much sums up how messy the entire disc is ...

I guess there's enough trumpet on the recording that some folks could venture a guess - I can't alas. 

 

Too bad this doesn't turn up on @Michael Fitzgerald's Cecil Payne leader discography.

Pretty weird that no one ever tackled this mystery recording (or so it seems)! 

On 3.1.2021 at 9:46 PM, thirdtry said:

I believe track 7 is Crazy Rhythm.

Yep!

 

On 3.1.2021 at 9:19 PM, jazztrain said:

The listed tune titles are useless.  I've added some notations below based on a quick listen to the samples.  Definitely an audience recording.  Some sound like a large band, while the others sound like Cecil with a rhythm section.  The sound varies somewhat from sample to sample.  I wonder if there are multiple sources or sessions that were sampled.  Note that the cd cover says "compiled by" Aubrey Mayhew.

>>>

1.  Cecil's Back Home. 

2. Outta My Head for You [This sounds like "You Go to My Head"]

3. Confirmation

4. Kelly's Rhythm [Night in Tunisia]

5. Sounds of the Soul [The sample is just a woman talking]

6.  52nd Street Theme [No, this is "Goodbye"]

7. Keys of Kelly

8. Layin's Down Cecil [Body and Soul]

>>>

Yep on #4 and #6 ... I thought the same for a moment of #2 but can't tell for sure.

I think you're right on #8, too - so this is "Body and Soul", the opening head missing, but changes seem to match, indeed! Except that we get a bit of "52nd Street Theme", before we cut back to "Body and Soul". Cutting almost on par with that Dick Bock sometimes did ;) 

Can you confirm #1 and #7? I don't think I know these tunes but didn't yet check with discographies/my collection/youtube.

On 3.1.2021 at 10:17 PM, JSngry said:

#1 is "Indiana" changes, not hearing the head, maybe it's "Donna Lee"?

Sounds right for the changes, but the head is not "Donna Lee" (it's present on the disc ... and damn, it does sound familiar but I can't pin it down - maybe it's just the "Indiana" changes that make it sound so familiar?)

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Is it "Ice Freezes Red", from a Fats Navarro/Leo Parker Savoy side? Just guessing...

I can confirm that #2 is indeed "You Go to My Head' and #7 "Crazy Rhythm", at least the changes.

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8 hours ago, chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez said:

collectibles was run by capitol wasnt it

I'm thinking no, not even.

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On 12.1.2021 at 8:27 PM, JSngry said:

Is it "Ice Freezes Red", from a Fats Navarro/Leo Parker Savoy side? Just guessing...

Much simpler - it's really just straight "Indiana", played by the trumpet with plenty of embellishments. Plain and simple. Sometimes these things need more than one attempt ;) 

It really does bug me that we have no clue who the trumpet player might be ... and the drummer sounds pretty characteristic, too.

20 hours ago, chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez said:

says manufactured by rhino on my elvin 2-fer Midnight walk cd.....but yea im more confused now.  

Well yes, I guess that's like the Mosaic sets manufactured by Sony and other labels of origin ... no idea how those deals worked, but they are (were) fairly common, it seems.

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36 minutes ago, chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez said:

collectibles is from the """"oldies.com"""" catalogue maybe? 

It's the same outfit. Same label. Same company.

If you want to do a deep search on the Collectables label, you will find a LOT of "obscure" music, including a Leo Parker record of his Gotham sides (including alternates!). Tiny Grimes records, Dolphin's Of Hollywood Doo-Wop records, Frank Motley (the RRK of trumpeters!), just ALL kinds of stuff, and I would be surprised if any of it was more thanany kind of "legit", ok? Maybe, but maybe not.

So that's Collectables.

The other half of the equation here is Aubrey Mayhew of Chatlie Parker Records. Read about him here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aubrey_Mayhew

and then here: https://www.discogs.com/label/33298-Charlie-Parker-Records

If you find them, you will see that the CPR records catalos  had some appearance as Everest reissues, and then again as ALA (not Alamac!) reissues.

Also, I have at least one "original" CPR issue that came out on Collectables, Yusef Lateef Lost In Sound. Surely there were others?

Aubrey Mayhew was a wheeler-dealer, or so they say. And the Collectables label was probably know stranger to wheeling and dealing themselves.

I would feel confident "assuming" that Mayhew had a tape, this Cecil Payne tape, and a labelname to go with it. So him and Collectables wheeled and dealed, and this, dear music lover, is the result.

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15 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I would feel confident "assuming" that Mayhew had a tape, this Cecil Payne tape, and a labelname to go with it. So him and Collectables wheeled and dealed, and this, dear music lover, is the result.

..... and the tunes were re-titled to avoid royalties, or themes edited out.

It reminds me of the way the Donald Byrd - Pepper Adams tracks recorded for Warwick were treated when reissued under Herbie Hancock's name to cash in on them.

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16 hours ago, JSngry said:

If you want to do a deep search on the Collectables label, you will find a LOT of "obscure" music, including a Leo Parker record of his Gotham sides (including alternates!). Tiny Grimes records, Dolphin's Of Hollywood Doo-Wop records, Frank Motley (the RRK of trumpeters!), just ALL kinds of stuff, and I would be surprised if any of it was more thanany kind of "legit", ok? Maybe, but maybe not.

 

Sounds to me like this was the kind of reissues that Krazy Kat did in Britain in the 80s. Krazy Kat produced a LOT of Gotham reissues, and they were well presented with decent liner notes. A bit like a lot of what Ace did. I seem to remember that quite a bit of the Ace vinyl catalog of that period (80s/early 90s) was covered as well by reissues on Rhino for the US market (where Ace maybe wasn't officially imported at the time?). As if there had been an agreement between Ace and Rhino that Ace covered the "RoW" and Rhino covered the US.
Did something like this exist (even if only tacitly) between Flyright/Krazy Kat and Collectables too at some time? Or did Collectables just plainly recycle the Krazy Kat reissues? But why focus on (mostly) Gotham only?

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I've seen Collectables use exact Krazy Kat covers, but past that, no idea.

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I've had one Collectables CD, a Lester Young comp that was so no-noised I had to sell it back. 

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