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Rabshakeh

Artists influenced by Coltrane's final years

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The jazz world since the 60s has been full of saxophone players influenced by Coltrane at his various stages of development.

However, I can't immediately think of any player who shows a clear influence from the music recorded in the final year of Coltrane's life, i.e., Expression, Stellar Regions or Interstellar Space.

To my ear, that's a very different sound to the music that Coltrane had been playing even two years before. It still sounds strikingly personal. 

Can anyone think of anyone who shows a clear influence from that period of Coltrane's playing? 

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Glenn Spearman comes to mind. 

 

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Larry Ochs and James Finn come to mind.

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Perhaps David S. Ware?

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Posted (edited)

In Ornette Coleman's music, and Ayler's even, I hear an artistic need to stretch conventions, to formulate a new musical language. When I apply notions of modernism, it helps me to figure out where they stand, so to speak. With Coltrane, not so much. His records document a journey into the self - up to a point where stylistic issues becomes irrelevant. Breaking Bebop-conventions, redefining The Blues seem to be the least of his concerns. I cannot claim that on an intellectual level I do 'understand' what is going on on these final records, but at least I've given up trying. Which - for me -  has been the key to appreciating them.

.So yeah, it's the most 'personal' and expressive music I know. And the most spiritual. Maybe that is also the reason why even the most gifted of post-Coltrane players have generally not dared to touch it, Style may be emulated, but how do you internalize a life?

In David S. Ware I directly hear Ayler, not late Coltrane and in my book that sort of makes sense.

Edited by Mark13

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Influence and imitation are two different things.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Influence and imitation are two different things.

I am deeply aware of the difference. But you're right, I should have avoided 'emulate' and used 'incorporate' instead.

 

 

Edited by Mark13

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6 hours ago, Mark13 said:

In David S. Ware I directly hear Ayler, not late Coltrane and in my book that sort of makes sense.

Really? For me it really is the other way around. I see/hear similarities in Coltrane’s latest group and Ware’s band with Shipp, Parker and Ibarra. But also in their tenor playing style I hear more similarities with Trane than with Ayler.

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Posted (edited)

I hear much more Sonny Rollins in David S Ware’s playing

I hear very little Trane in Larry Ochs’ playing

I think Ochs is one of the greatest saxophonists on the planet fwiw 

Paul Dunmall is the first person I think of. He’s very clearly and openly affected by later period Coltrane. As time has worn on it’s less obvious but he’s still a proponent of the big sound.

 

Edited by Steve Reynolds

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, Pim said:

Perhaps David S. Ware?

Yeah.  Ware’s sound comes more out of Ayler and Rollins but the scientific/mathematical/architectural approach is Coltraneish

Edited by Guy Berger

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Mentioning Larry Ochs was influenced by the sax and two drums format of The Neon Truth, and having seen the Electric Ascension performance at Big Ears.

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1 hour ago, randyhersom said:

Mentioning Larry Ochs was influenced by the sax and two drums format of The Neon Truth, and having seen the Electric Ascension performance at Big Ears.

Would love to have seen that. My take on Ochs is that he almost oblique to an extreme and it seems like he almost consciously avoids settling into any routine in his improvising - especially long held altissimo screams. I love him with What we Live and even more with Jones Jones (a trio with Mark Dresser & Vladimir Tarasov). His Fictive Five group which includes 2 bassists, Nate Wooley & Harris Eisenstaedt is spectacular. Not a Traneism to be found anywhere. 

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54 minutes ago, Steve Reynolds said:

Not a Traneism to be found anywhere. 

To my ears, this is to some extent true of 1967 Coltrane too, though.  Those clear Traneisms just dropped out. 

And I agree on the Ware point. He might have taken the spirituality, but what he actually plays seems to come from elsewhere.

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Posted (edited)

On (otherwise excellent) solo drums album by Beaver Harris "African Drums" (recorded in 1977) there is one track (called "African Drums" too) with David S. Ware. His playing is weak, and it's infested with late-era Coltrane-isms. 

"Interstellar Space" is my favorite Coltrane album, fwiw.

I agree on Glenn Spearman being influenced by later-period Coltrane, what an excellent musician. Also, Louis Belogenis. Early Gerd Dudek (later Dudek is also indebted to Coltrane but rather "Crescent"-period). Actually, Evan Parker on tenor. And early Breuker (Machine Gun era). Ivo Perelman ("Hammer", "Sound Hierarchy"). Joe McPhee. Urs Leimgruber. Alfred 23 Harth. From younger generation, Jonas Kullhammar. Many people. Best of them don't sound like Coltrane (thankfully).           

Edited by Д.Д.

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17 minutes ago, Д.Д. said:

Actually, Evan Parker on tenor.

And soprano as well. I think it's quite obvious, but not everybody does...but intervallic architecture is what it is.

Although....nobody delves as deeply into the harmonic insides of this music as Coltrane did (except some pianist, but people are going to claim a Cecil Influence there). Coltrane got deep into math, physics, and Bartok to get to where he got, and of course, world religious studies, and let's face it, most people are content with "changes" and "spirituality". Most, certainly not all.

But the influence, my god, the influence...

And Jesus, AACM....Roscoe or Braxton on one of those intense circular breathing multi-directional excursions that go off in different directions simultaneously within themselves...

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I feel like maybe Gary Windo is part of this conversation, too, but that's based on a limited sample. And Windo's probably more indebted to Ayler than anyone.

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Coltrane was also indebted to Ayler. Newtonian pursuit of a quantum end.

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Tony Malaby

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33 minutes ago, jlhoots said:

Tony Malaby

I’ll sleep and think on this:) maybe 15 to 20 years ago. Maybe. The many sets I’ve seen and heard him play from 2010 up through early 2020 when everything shut down revealed as unique approach to the saxophone within jazz based structures (whether the music had charts or not) as anyone playing today. He’s certainly not universally appreciated. In fact I know many naysayers who just cannot deal with his approach.

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2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Coltrane was also indebted to Ayler. Newtonian pursuit of a quantum end.

I wonder if they would eventually have recorded together. 

Another one: Paul Flaherty. 

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Evan Parker, absolutely

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