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John Coltrane - Love Supreme: Live in Seattle

264 posts in this topic

And that's an "interesting" perspective that I'm not entirely disinclined to agree with. Or putting it another way, there's a hell of a lot of very interesting things going on around him from everyone else on that bandstand. I like the bass "interludes" too, in fact I think calling them "interludes" undermines their contribution to the whole a fair bit.

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43 minutes ago, felser said:

The horns absolutely  are not inaudible or anything close to that.  They're just lower in the mix than they should be.  The basses are also lower than they should be (and take too many solos/duos!), and Elvin is higher than he should be.    Fair point about not everything needs to be released, but this most assuredly did need to be, warts and all.   Staggeringly important historical document, and bracing if imperfect music.

It is more a question of the cost of issuing everything. The labels need to recoup their expenses. So they might get 20 tapes handed to them, one will come out because it is a strong performance and will sell. What happens to the other 19? We can't assume they were all poor performances.

The Monterey Jazz Festival tapes are an interesting case. They are housed at Stanford and can be auditioned on site. Commercial release is still an option, Concord did it. For the ones not released, you can listen at Stanford. Not ideal, but think of the alternative: if a record label had bought them, there would be no way to hear the ones that did not come out. With this option, there is a way you can. Not a convenient way, but a way. Same with Newport tapes at the Library of Congress.

Now with digital, having copies deposited in multiple locations in multiple cities is an option. In theory, it is a great idea. Making it happen is a whole other thing. Let's start with the first step: could the Library of Congress and Stanford establish a reciprocity where digital copies of both Newport and Monterey were placed in each? The agreements with the two Festivals may preclude it. On the other hand, I doubt the idea has ever been pitched. Maybe it should be pitched...

 

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Interesting on Concord.  I didn't find any of their Monterey releases all that compelling.  Nothing wrong with them, but nothing particularly special either.  Seems like there should have been better choices to be made, especially given some of the landmark releases from there on other labels (John Handy, Mingus, Charles Lloyd, Randy Weston even Bola Sete).  But then again, it's Concord, where blandness is always the order of the day.

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14 hours ago, bertrand said:

A bigger question is really whether all these types of discoveries need to be made commercially available? Something like this was going to get a strong push of course, but loads of such tapes are popping up as those who have them get old and start realizing they can't take it with them. Not everything can come out, what are legal alternatives to preserve them so that present and future jazz fans can enjoy them?

 

Some of them have been pretty essential:  The Monk /Coltrane concert, Diz and Bird at Town Hall , the Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall and everything so far released from the Savory collection.  

51 minutes ago, bertrand said:

It is more a question of the cost of issuing everything. The labels need to recoup their expenses. So they might get 20 tapes handed to them, one will come out because it is a strong performance and will sell. What happens to the other 19? We can't assume they were all poor performances.

The Monterey Jazz Festival tapes are an interesting case. They are housed at Stanford and can be auditioned on site. Commercial release is still an option, Concord did it. For the ones not released, you can listen at Stanford. Not ideal, but think of the alternative: if a record label had bought them, there would be no way to hear the ones that did not come out. With this option, there is a way you can. Not a convenient way, but a way. Same with Newport tapes at the Library of Congress.

Now with digital, having copies deposited in multiple locations in multiple cities is an option. In theory, it is a great idea. Making it happen is a whole other thing. Let's start with the first step: could the Library of Congress and Stanford establish a reciprocity where digital copies of both Newport and Monterey were placed in each? The agreements with the two Festivals may preclude it. On the other hand, I doubt the idea has ever been pitched. Maybe it should be pitched...

 

You can hear the  unissued (often for legal reasons) material from the Savory Collection on a computer at The National Jazz Museum of Harlem.

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37 minutes ago, felser said:

Interesting on Concord.  I didn't find any of their Monterey releases all that compelling.  Nothing wrong with them, but nothing particularly special either.  Seems like there should have been better choices to be made, especially given some of the landmark releases from there on other labels (John Handy, Mingus, Charles Lloyd, Randy Weston even Bola Sete).  But then again, it's Concord, where blandness is always the order of the day.

Another label could look into what they have. They provide a spreadsheet upon request.

12 minutes ago, medjuck said:

Some of them have been pretty essential:  The Monk /Coltrane concert, Diz and Bird at Town Hall , the Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall and everything so far released from the Savory collection.  

You can hear the  unissued (often for legal reasons) material from the Savory Collection on a computer at The National Jazz Museum of Harlem.

Excellent. But what if multiple archives in multiple cities had this collection and Monterey and Newport accessible for on-site audition? All they need is some computer storage. A few external terabyte drives and we are set. Conceptually trivial, probably a logistics nightmare. But, again, floating the idea can't hurt...

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55 minutes ago, felser said:

Interesting on Concord.  I didn't find any of their Monterey releases all that compelling.  Nothing wrong with them, but nothing particularly special either.  Seems like there should have been better choices to be made, especially given some of the landmark releases from there on other labels (John Handy, Mingus, Charles Lloyd, Randy Weston even Bola Sete).  But then again, it's Concord, where blandness is always the order of the day.

I thought the Miles Davis 1963 Monterey concert that Concord released was great.  The Monk was eh, but that's mostly because diminishing marginal returns on 1960s live Monk accrue pretty quickly for me.

14 hours ago, bertrand said:

A bigger question is really whether all these types of discoveries need to be made commercially available? Something like this was going to get a strong push of course, but loads of such tapes are popping up as those who have them get old and start realizing they can't take it with them. Not everything can come out, what are legal alternatives to preserve them so that present and future jazz fans can enjoy them?

I dunno.  They're made available because someone thinks it's worth $$$, and I don't see anything wrong with that.  Ideally, that allows the performing artists to make some $$$ to.  Otherwise, I'm fine just locating unofficial recordings for what I am interested in.

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2 hours ago, Guy Berger said:

I thought the Miles Davis 1963 Monterey concert that Concord released was great. 

Did it tell you anything you didn't already know from "In Europe" and "My Funny Valentine/Four and More"?   

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It kinda did, actually....Miles playing like Louis Armstrong (in his own way, of course), just struttin' with some hot flare/flair. He was obviously having a ball on that gig, whatever it was, it agreed with him.

But as a rule, yes, concord was always(!) the record equivalent of Woody Allen's mother's "flavor remover" that she put all their meals through before serving. And the exceptions only prove the rule!

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3 hours ago, Guy Berger said:

I thought the Miles Davis 1963 Monterey concert that Concord released was great.  The Monk was eh, but that's mostly because diminishing marginal returns on 1960s live Monk accrue pretty quickly for me.

I dunno.  They're made available because someone thinks it's worth $$$, and I don't see anything wrong with that.  Ideally, that allows the performing artists to make some $$$ to.  Otherwise, I'm fine just locating unofficial recordings for what I am interested in.

Nothing wrong with making them available, agreed. The problem is not making the others available. You won't be able to find them on the torrent sites. My issue is that they are not necessarily not available because the performances are poor. Sound quality and commercial potential are usually strong factors.

Let's pretend a 1960 Tina Brooks live date pops up. Stellar performance, OK sound. He was still with Blue Note, so they have first dibs and their point man on these nowadays is Zevvers. He has to convince the higher-ups, and they decide it will not sell enough, despite the relative buzz Tina has accrued in the last 30 years. Then what? Unless the guy with the tape kept a copy and slaps it on YouTube or a bit torrent site or goes to Jordi Pujol, we will never hear it.

If he decided to place it in some archive instead, at least someone could hear it, and really anyone willing to make the trip. If one single archive hosts enough of these, it is worth the trip. Blue Note could still try to release it. The idea that someone could travel 500 miles to listen to it rather than buy it is not a valid argument against this approach.

57 minutes ago, JSngry said:

It kinda did, actually....Miles playing like Louis Armstrong (in his own way, of course), just struttin' with some hot flare/flair. He was obviously having a ball on that gig, whatever it was, it agreed with him.

But as a rule, yes, concord was always(!) the record equivalent of Woody Allen's mother's "flavor remover" that she put all their meals through before serving. And the exceptions only prove the rule!

Concord could be too MOR for my taste, but there were more than a few exceptions. Emily Remler, the Neil Swainson date, the Maybeck series...

I picked up a fair amount when they popped up at Barnes and Noble for $3.99, but I am sorry I did not buy more.

Edited by bertrand

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10 minutes ago, bertrand said:

If he decided to place it in some archive instead, at least someone could hear it, and really anyone willing to make the trip. If one single archive hosts enough of these, it is worth the trip. Blue Note could still try to release it. The idea that someone could travel 500 miles to listen to it rather than buy it is not a valid argument against this approach.

There's no reason to have to travel 500 miles. There could be a worldwide network of affiliated libraries, museums, or other such institutions where access to the files could be purchased for an annual fee, or included in existing membership dues.

But if you want to prevent against the Jodys of the world, it will have to be onsite listening. Open streaming just means that it will be grabbed and sold by and to those who have no shame.

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1 hour ago, JSngry said:

There's no reason to have to travel 500 miles. There could be a worldwide network of affiliated libraries, museums, or other such institutions where access to the files could be purchased for an annual fee, or included in existing membership dues.

But if you want to prevent against the Jodys of the world, it will have to be onsite listening. Open streaming just means that it will be grabbed and sold by and to those who have no shame.

Exactly the kind of idea I have in mind. Affiliated network is good, I was looking for a good description.

Human nature being what it is, some heads of institutions will not want to work with others. But we can't take that into consideration, we have to assume going in that everyone wants to work towards a common goal to celebrate this great art form.

Yes, if there is streaming, there will be grabbing and bootlegging. Onsite only is the safest best. That still could have issues, PM me for an example.

Zevvers may think things like 'if people in every major city in the world can go to the Library to listen to this Tina Brooks date, why should I put it out' but I can't let that get in the way. I would still buy it, and others also. It cuts less into his sales than the private recordings. But he can't try to get away with things like excising bass solos to fit the vinyl.

So how do we get the ball rolling? I have been in communications with Stanford. I could ask them if it has ever been considered. Maybe their arrangement with the Monterey Jazz Festival precludes it, but I highly doubt it. The tapes have been there for years. The notion of sharing digital files across like-minded institutions would never have come up.

I could approach the Library of Congress also. My nemesis there retired. He would have blocked it, as he blocked every suggestion I ever made. If I said the world was round, he would argue that it was flat.

 

Edited by bertrand

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Nice comment from drummer and jazz DJ Jae Sinnett on his Facebook (er, “Meta”) page:

“There are a couple of notable things on this record but the one that stands out to me is the performance of Pursuance. Trane doesn't solo oddly enough. Pharaoh does and McCoy but it's McCoy's solo that absolutely blows me away. They play it way up. I mean up. The fastest I've ever heard any of them play. Well over 300BPMs and they're walking it. Not rubato and floating. It's swinging and McCoy's solo is almost 10 minutes long. They took the gloves off on this one. Seriously. I have never heard McCoy play like this. Or Elvin. I mean we've all heard them open up but this performance is on a different level. I don't know if that's Garrison playing bass because there's another bass player on the record and it's difficult for me to tell at that tempo. No second drummer.  Pursuance alone is worth the purchase of the release. I'm guessing Elvin, McCoy and the bassist were 5-10LBS lighter after this hit.”

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12 minutes ago, ghost of miles said:

“There are a couple of notable things on this record but the one that stands out to me is the performance of Pursuance. Trane doesn't solo oddly enough. Pharaoh does and McCoy but it's McCoy's solo that absolutely blows me away. They play it way up. I mean up. The fastest I've ever heard any of them play. Well over 300BPMs and they're walking it. Not rubato and floating. It's swinging and McCoy's solo is almost 10 minutes long. They took the gloves off on this one. Seriously. I have never heard McCoy play like this. Or Elvin. I mean we've all heard them open up but this performance is on a different level. I don't know if that's Garrison playing bass because there's another bass player on the record and it's difficult for me to tell at that tempo. No second drummer.  Pursuance alone is worth the purchase of the release. I'm guessing Elvin, McCoy and the bassist were 5-10LBS lighter after this shit.”

:tup

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That Tyner solo is my favorite part of the performance.  Outstanding.

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For me, the question was how does this relate to the studio recording - in that that seems to have some sort of perfect settlement of form with content, which I think is defining for a lot of people who listen to it.

For me, so far, the big difference is the tension between the form and the content. It's like wherever Coltrane and his musicians are, the settlement of the studio album doesn't work anymore and they're striving for somewhere beyond.

The sort of "perfect answer" of the studio album isn't there anymore - which I think is going to be a disappointment for a lot of people - but it's still amazing to be there in the club listening to them going beyond.

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50 minutes ago, Simon Weil said:

For me, the question was how does this relate to the studio recording - in that that seems to have some sort of perfect settlement of form with content, which I think is defining for a lot of people who listen to it.

For me, so far, the big difference is the tension between the form and the content. It's like wherever Coltrane and his musicians are, the settlement of the studio album doesn't work anymore and they're striving for somewhere beyond.

The sort of "perfect answer" of the studio album isn't there anymore - which I think is going to be a disappointment for a lot of people - but it's still amazing to be there in the club listening to them going beyond.

I love this framing, it’s exactly right.

IMHO it explains Ethan Iverson’s dissatisfaction with the other (July 1965) live version of A Love Supreme.

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What I love about this new release is that it gives listeners a new way of viewing later Coltrane from the perspective of A Love Supreme... (And I fully agree that the first 70percent or so of the piano solo on Pursuance  are the highlight)

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22 hours ago, Simon Weil said:

For me, the question was how does this relate to the studio recording - in that that seems to have some sort of perfect settlement of form with content, which I think is defining for a lot of people who listen to it.

For me, so far, the big difference is the tension between the form and the content. It's like wherever Coltrane and his musicians are, the settlement of the studio album doesn't work anymore and they're striving for somewhere beyond.

The sort of "perfect answer" of the studio album isn't there anymore - which I think is going to be a disappointment for a lot of people - but it's still amazing to be there in the club listening to them going beyond.

Thank you for articulating my thoughts on this so concisely. I've been trying to work out to say that this release is less about the studio release than all the press suggests.

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22 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

Thank you for articulating my thoughts on this so concisely. I've been trying to work out to say that this release is less about the studio release than all the press suggests.

 

21 hours ago, Guy Berger said:

I love this framing, it’s exactly right.

Thanks guys.

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I like it a lot. Listened online, ordered the CD, should be here in a couple days. Probably should revisit my old Ingo LP of the other live "Love Supreme" and see how it holds up. I remember having fun spinning that one too, though it's been years.

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18 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

How is the audio?  Is it a decent mix?

Jeez! Didn't you read any of this thread?

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49 minutes ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Jeez! Didn't you read any of this thread?

No.  Late to the party.  Which post do you recommend I read?  

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1 minute ago, Teasing the Korean said:

No.  Late to the party.  Which post do you recommend I read?  

As usual, go back. Duh!

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