Pim

John Coltrane - Love Supreme: Live in Seattle

236 posts in this topic

8 hours ago, Pim said:

I never got the criticism of Om, Live in Seattle and this period in general. Though not Tranes best albums they aren’t bad either. There’s still a lot of magic. I’ve always had a feeling that lots of people just parrot the critics on these albums (not saying you do Felser, don’t get me wrong). 
 

Same goes for albums like ‘Interstellar Space’, ‘Live in Japan’ and the stunning ‘Stellar Regions’. Comments like: Pharoah didn’t knew what he was doing, Alice was an unworthy successor of McCoy or that Trane definitely lost his way here… bullshit if you ask me. In fact they are among my favorite albums.

'Om' is one of my favourite Coltrane albums

1 hour ago, Rooster_Ties said:

How was this so hard to find for 50+ years? Perfectly labeled, it even said “A Love” on the box.

30 years I might believe, but not 50.

You must live a very tidy life. I have boxes of stuff I have forgotten is in them in just ten years and as Jsngry says if no one was asking ...

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Posted (edited)

42 minutes ago, david weiss said:

The box was in a bigger box that no one opened for years. This happens more than one would think and in this case, it seems to have come to light because of one person's persistence....

(I was kinda half kidding… …though in your defense, I was only half kidding.)

16 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

You must live a very tidy life. I have boxes of stuff I have forgotten is in them in just ten years and as Jsngry says if no one was asking ...

(I was kinda half kidding… …though in your defense too, I was only half kidding.)

Edited by Rooster_Ties

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, Pim said:

 I’ve always had a feeling that lots of people just parrot the critics on these albums (not saying you do Felser, don’t get me wrong). 
 

Same goes for albums like ‘Interstellar Space’, ‘Live in Japan’ and the stunning ‘Stellar Regions’. Comments like: Pharoah didn’t knew what he was doing, Alice was an unworthy successor of McCoy or that Trane definitely lost his way here… bullshit if you ask me. In fact they are among my favorite albums.

Yeah, I have been familiar with those albums since the 70's, and come by my ambivalence for them on my own, no critics necessary.   I actually think Alice was tremendous with Trane. and "got" where he was headed (as did Rashied Ali). I like the Japan album and 'Interstellar Space' (and 'Meditations') plenty, it's the post-'Meditations' albums with McCoy and Elvin (and 'Expression', which seems to be yet another change in direction) which leave me uneasy.  I own them all, and they are certainly "interesting", but my go-to's are 'Crescent' or 'Live at Birdland' ( and where are the rest of those tapes?) or 'Transition', depending on mood.

Edited by felser

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The thing about evolution is that it's a real-time process. Not always pretty, definitely not settled in advance. you don't know where you're going, not until you get there, but after you've got there and maybe even start to leave. And until then, you might not even know if you're going to get anywhere. You just don't know.

Neither Elvin nor McCoy landed on their feet right away, either financially or musically, unless you think that Joe Farrell was a step up from Coltrane and/or that bands assembled for record dates are the same as a real working band.

On a completely different track, I'm moseying on through the Weather Report book, and damn, the motherfuckers would change players on a whim just to get the people they wanted NEXT, never mind RIGHT NOW, and they weren't necessarily always nice about it either. But that was something else altogether. Just saying, Joe & Wayne were both in long associations and know how hard it could be to get a band to change. At some point, you just don't get the band to change unless it wants to change, and if that's not enough, you get a different band. It's never easy, because these are people you've bonded with in so many ways, maybe even more intimately than a marriage, or at least a different kind of intimacy.

So if some of those records make you uneasy, that's ok. But that's just the way it was, and you don't get to whatever other side there was (and imo there definitely was) without that happening first. That's just how it was, and really, that's just how it had to be.

1 hour ago, david weiss said:

The box was in a bigger box that no one opened for years. This happens more than one would think and in this case, it seems to have come to light because of one person's persistence....

And I'm going to go out on a limb and say that that one person was probably not Zev Feldman, that GREAT "jazz detective" and native of Palo Alto, California.

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It’s remarkable how much better Coltrane’s estate is at producing great archival recordings, relative to Miles Davis’s.  Maybe it’s just luck, but I assume mostly it’s due to having Ravi in charge.

 

The Davis archival releases have mostly been Columbia recordings, widely circulating bootlegs and session reels.  I’m glad to have them, but they were obtainable before.

12 hours ago, John L said:

While the live Love Supreme from France is nice, there were apparently some problems that spoiled the mood.   They say that Coltrane and Elvin were very angry at each other for some reason that day and the band had to soak up the extremely hot July sun in their wool suits.  So I am expecting that this one might surpass it.  

I think the A Love Supreme from France is much more than nice!

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

I've always found something a little lacking about Coltrane's early free period (i.e., Ascension and onwards, to the end of 66), despite enjoying free jazz in general. I don't think it is Sanders so much as the rest of the group(s), including Coltrane. It doesn't click to my ears - perhaps the saxophone is a bit too macho. Those records from 65 / 66, regardless of who is on piano or drums, aren't my favourites, and I think they compare very poorly to the final trio of records from 67: Expression, Interstellar Space and Stellar Regions, which I think are masterpieces.

I agree the 1967 recordings are great.

BUT they have a very curated vibe and it’s a little unfair to compare them to 1965.  The releases of that year’s material are like a giant archival kitchen sink!  The classic, the not classic but still great, the good but not great (nothing really bad - this is Trane after all)… Sun Ship is one of my 3-4 favorite Trane albums.  The Half Note recordings, the live A Love Supreme from France, First Meditations, Living Space, Transition, Meditations…. 

Edited by Guy Berger

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Okay. Maybe time to revisit Om and Sunship again. 
 

Either way, I’m very excited about this new release. Has anyone tried the taster track that’s been uploaded to stream?

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3 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Okay. Maybe time to revisit Om and Sunship again. 
 

Either way, I’m very excited about this new release. Has anyone tried the taster track that’s been uploaded to stream?

Oh yes it’s always a good time to revisit Sun Ship. Such a stunning piece of work :)

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On 8/28/2021 at 10:39 PM, JSngry said:

And I'm going to go out on a limb and say that that one person was probably not Zev Feldman, that GREAT "jazz detective" and native of Palo Alto, California.

I believe Mark Stryker provided a link to the answer further up this thread. Steve Griggs devotion to Joe Brazil's legacy uncovered this. Noted Coltrane scholar Yasuhiro Fujioka probably made the connections and so on and so on. One of the perks of successfully branding yourself the "jazz detective" is that one is probably approached a lot when things are unearthed. It looks like Steve Griggs laid the groundwork on this one

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Steve Griggs is a hero.

Zevvers is a...brand, at this point, anyway.

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Very excited to hear this release.

I wonder if Ravi will bring to light any of the "lost" recordings from 1967 (assuming there are tapes lying in boxes within boxes inside a trunk up in the attic behind Ray Draper's first tuba).

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1 hour ago, Late said:

Very excited to hear this release.

I wonder if Ravi will bring to light any of the "lost" recordings from 1967 (assuming there are tapes lying in boxes within boxes inside a trunk up in the attic behind Ray Draper's first tuba).

Asked upthread but didn't hear anything: does anyone have any additional info about the December 1966 "tentet" performance at the Village Theater? Sessionographies list a "private tape" source. Does anyone know if this exists? Or does it circulate?

John Coltrane Tentet

John Coltrane, soprano, tenor sax, percussion; Pharoah Sanders, tenor sax, percussion; Alice Coltrane, piano; Jimmy Garrison, Lionel "Sonny" Johnson, bass; Rashied Ali, drums; + John Salgato, trumpet; unknown, tambura; Omar Ali, congas; Algie DeWitt, bata drum.

"Village Theatre", NYC, December 26, 1966

  unknown title private tape
  Hymn -
  unknown title -
  My Favorite Things -

My assumption about the "missing" 1966/67 studio recordings is that they perished in the fire, but does anyone know this for sure?

This pamphlet purports to be from the VT engagement:

Music Memorabilia:Posters, John Coltrane 1966 Village Theater New York City Four-Page Program....

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28 minutes ago, colinmce said:

Asked upthread but didn't hear anything: does anyone have any additional info about the December 1966 "tentet" performance at the Village Theater? Sessionographies list a "private tape" source. Does anyone know if this exists? Or does it circulate?

John Coltrane Tentet

John Coltrane, soprano, tenor sax, percussion; Pharoah Sanders, tenor sax, percussion; Alice Coltrane, piano; Jimmy Garrison, Lionel "Sonny" Johnson, bass; Rashied Ali, drums; + John Salgato, trumpet; unknown, tambura; Omar Ali, congas; Algie DeWitt, bata drum.

"Village Theatre", NYC, December 26, 1966

  unknown title private tape
  Hymn -
  unknown title -
  My Favorite Things -

My assumption about the "missing" 1966/67 studio recordings is that they perished in the fire, but does anyone know this for sure?

This pamphlet purports to be from the VT engagement:

Music Memorabilia:Posters, John Coltrane 1966 Village Theater New York City Four-Page Program....

Those were the days.  $3.50 for the top ticket to see that!  That's about $30 in 2021 dollars.

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Hell, if you could get a bill like that for $30.00 today, it would be even more of a bargain!

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2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Hell, if you could get a bill like that for $30.00 today, it would be even more of a bargain!

Yep, either of them, the present Marion Brown (with outstanding musicians)/Jeanne Lee/Coltrane, or the upcoming Shepp/Ayler/Frank Smith.

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On 8/30/2021 at 0:41 PM, colinmce said:

The December 1966 "tentet" performance at the Village Theater? Sessionographies list a "private tape" source. Does anyone know if this exists? Or does it circulate? My assumption about the "missing" 1966/67 studio recordings is that they perished in the fire, but does anyone know this for sure?

Would be great to hear that Village Theater (different than the Gate?) recording, presuming a private tape does exist (or existed). Would also be wonderful to have some of the missing (late period) tapes somehow surface. I guess it's not out of the question these days. There are probably (?) other Joe Brazil scenarios out there.

I guess we'll be hearing the Seattle recording by Friday? (At least according to Amazon delivery notifications.)

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19 minutes ago, Late said:

I guess we'll be hearing the Seattle recording by Friday? (At least according to Amazon delivery notifications.)

Oops. Scratch that. Not THIS Friday ...

(I got the notifications mixed up with David Sedaris' new book.)

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That Marion Brown concert shown above was supposedly recorded for an ESP release that never came out. Wonder if the tapes survived?

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Trane played the Village Theatre twice in 1966, once as part of the Lovebeast concert series (his concert as on August 12) and once on a double bill with Ornette (December 26).  I was at both concerts as well as the July 29th set that Ornette headlined.

The Heritage Auctions flyer would appear to reference the Lovebeast date and has nothing to do with the later concert.  The two shouldn't be conflated.

Love Beast Festival Poster.jpg

As for the personnel, I'm fairly certain that there was no trumpet player at the December concert.  The Reference goes two ways on this.  The discography...which mentions an audience tape that the authors had not heard at the time of publication...lists Salgato.  The chronology, which includes reviews by John S. Wilson and Elizabeth van der Mei (though Wilson apparently didn't stay for Trane's set) does not.  It's been a very long time but I would remember if some unknown trumpet player had been with Trane that evening.  It' didn't happen.  The Reference doesn't list a tambura  player either.  And van der Mei lists and comments on all of the personnel including Omar Ali and Algie De Witt.

The Marion Brown piece is interesting.  The ESP recording is listed here.  It's not impossible that the recording session took place on the same day as the concert but the coincidence raises questions for me, as does the idea that Jeanne Lee and Ran Blake did thirteen songs in their set.  I don't remember that..unless maybe it was a medley...and I don't remember seeing either Dave Burrell or Grachan with Marion, though the 55 years may be interceding here.  It would be interesting if ESP recorded...or was supposed to record...Marion's set.

The matter of Trane tapes that still haven't seen the light of day will not be news to most of the folks on this board.  Ben Young played what seemed to be previously unheard Trane on the WPI Jazz History Database thing he did on Trane's birthday.  Presumably...but not assuredly...a second version of "Equinox" from the Sutherland (March-April 1961).

The "late" Trane thing I am holding out for is a the February 6, 1966 set at Lincoln center when Albert Ayler sat in.  Decades ago I was communicating regularly with a major Cecil Taylor collector..the precursor to Richard Shapiro and Rick Lopez...who told me that when he was hanging out at the Studio Rivbea someone approached him with a tape of "late" Trane where Albert's presence was clearly audible.  They guy wanted too much money...this was on the street...and my friend passed.  But he is very knowledgeable and he's sure about what he heard.

Calling Bertrand...

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Thanks, Ed.

Would be curious who was with Frank Smith on those dates. 

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42 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

Thanks, Ed.

Would be curious who was with Frank Smith on those dates. 

A group of violin players!  At least that's what he had on July 29.

It was maybe a half dozen guys, all playing "avant garde" violin together in sort of like a chorus behind his sax.  I don't remember any of them taking any solos.  And they may not have played all the time.  They may have played one or more group improvisations when Frank wasn't playing.  But it was as much a visual spectacle as anything else.  Unlike anything else in any of the other sets that I witnessed.

I don't remember anything about a bass player or a drummer, though he may have had those instruments as well.

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Fascinating! He seemed like an interesting character. Wish I'd gotten to interview him.

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