Pim

Welcome to BFT 210

68 posts in this topic

9 minutes ago, tkeith said:

 

Track 14 - No doubt.  Reggie.  Opener from this.  This album always gets lost in the shuffle.  I know I’m a broken record, here, but to my ear, it’s because of the way it’s recorded.  If this had been recorded 20 years earlier, there would be some breathing room in the sound.  There are some great moments on this, but I’d really like to kick the engineer in the shin. 

 

Damn! I knew I knew that and even said I could probably pull it off my shelves, and I can.  Must listen to it

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18 hours ago, tkeith said:

Track 01 - Loving that tenor sound right off the bat.  Gut instinct says it’s Reverend Frank.  Has an edge of David S. Ware (speaking in terms of technique, here). Digging this tune.  OOoooo!  A full band!  Tim, sounds like Traveler of Tomorrow a bit, no?  Man, I love the in-the-tradition stuff (listening and playing) but THIS, man… this is where it’s at for me.  Too structured for Reverend Frank.  Thinking someone out of Bowie’s neighborhood.  Has the drive of some of Johnny Dyani’s stuff, but I believe this to be a little later.  Not entirely certain what this is.  I AM certain I don’t have it, and I WILL need it.

indeed a little too structured for Frank Wright but it does have some of that energy! Glad you like it. Song was ID’d by mjazzg

18 hours ago, tkeith said:

Track 02 - Not enamored of that snare sound.  Vijay Iyer comes to mind, but I don’t think it’s him.  I like it, but it tends toward busy structure.  Drummer needs some decaf.  Love the bass, but wish it was more out front.  Ah, there we go.  Could be a Holland project (loving bass, finding frustration in the music).  I’d probably like this more live or if it were recorded earlier.  Those drums reek of an overzealous engineer itching to prove how much he knows about Munson curves.  Split decision.  Like the idea better than the execution.  Love the bassist.

I can see why you think of Iyer. He’s from the same decade. Funny no one likes the drummer. He is commonly regarded as one of the fresh talents of this time.

18 hours ago, tkeith said:

Track 03 - Early feel has that heavy McCoy influence.  Then it felt like a Woody Shaw date from the early 80s.  Trumpet is more towards Freddie to my ear.  I like this.  Not sure how unique it is, but it sure is done well.  Has enough fire to be real.  I need to know these guys.  It’s too close.  Man, that sure sounds like Avery Sharpe’s bass to me.  Not McCoy, but owes him lunch for a year, at least.  This is pretty bad ass.  Again, don’t have it, need it.  Feel like I’ve got big holes in my collection because I was a Hank Mobley snob when this stuff came out (guessing mid-80s).  Still don’t think it’s McCoy, but it is SPOT on.  Maybe Al Foster on drums?  Seems a bit tighter, but the general feel and touch is right.  7:35, that piano line!  Not Avery.  Really sounds like Ron Carter about 8:05.  Gotta be Ron.  Man!  This is a bitch!  Why do I NOT have this?  Not Al.  Almost sounds like Tony Williams in the 4s section.  Man, this is WICKED!  It’s not Hannibal, but has that feel.  MORE!!!!

I like your enthousiasm Tom! None of the musicians you named participated here but they all play in a similar style! Was ID’d already.

18 hours ago, tkeith said:

Track 04 - Alright… who’s mellow mixed with Sonny Fortune?  Wait, no mistaking Booker Ervin.  Not going to lie, had to sleuth the hell out of this.  I knew it was Jaki.  SHOCKED that that’s Alan Dawson!  It’s Track 3 from this.  Don’t own it.  WILL fix that.

Correct sir! Song , artist and album were Id’d.

18 hours ago, tkeith said:

Track 05 - Of course recognize the song… but a title?  Nope.  Chick Corea tune, right?  This works, across the board.  Oh!  Wait!  No, Kenny Wheeler. ‘Smatter?  Wait… GAH!  WHAT IS THIS!?  Aw, man… sure hope somebody nails the title or I’m not sleeping until September 30!  Fourth listen — I’m going to say Roy Haynes is the drummer.  I know that bassist, but I don’t have him.  Pianist could be many guys.  I’m starting to think this is an “original” taking from all the sources I guessed above (hell, we ALL do that).  
 

Roy Haynes is indeed the drummer! You heard that very well. Artist/pianist was ID’d.

18 hours ago, tkeith said:

Track 06 - Okay, yup… recognition, but no name for the track.  iTunes has ruined me.  Obviously not the original.  Recognize the tenor, not Wayne.  Pre-conservatory guy, but not quite the facility of Wayne.  I know that sound.  HOLY!  Took some sleuthing, but I found it.  Mainstream!  My mind took me to a Miles tune.  Man… couldn’t BE more wrong.  Side 1, Track 2 from this.

Correct! Song was ID’d before.

18 hours ago, tkeith said:

Track 07 - Man, I like this.  The Brass Company meets John Handy!  With a touch of who-knows-what mixed in.  That left hand.  Is this possibly an early John Hicks date?  I don’t know of anything that early.  Oh, wait.  No, that’s Joe Bonner.  Beautiful tune.  Feel like I know it, but again, I probably don’t.  This test is going to cost me money.

see why you thought of Hicks but indeed this is Joe Bonner. Song and album were ID’d :)

18 hours ago, tkeith said:

Track 08 - Wanted to like this, but it seems to devolve into an angry Eastern European frenzy.  Was leaning towards Cecil, but then it got silly.  Loved the opening bass work, but I got lost thereafter.

It’s definitely Eastern European. Well, perhaps more Central European but what we used to call the Eastern bloc.

18 hours ago, tkeith said:

Track 09 - Electric cello?  Has a very call-to-prayer feel.  11/4?  Like the feel once it gets into it, for sure.  No idea what it is.  Part Threadgill, part KVM, part Masada.  Like if Barney McAll wrote for the Little Huey Orchestra.  I’m in.  Not sure how you categorize this, but I sure would love to be there as it’s happening. Runs long when the guitar starts in, but that’s probably my snobbery as much as anything.  I’m intrigued.  Definitely music to be witnessed more than heard.  
 

Track 10 - Stafford James, without a doubt.  Oh.  Side 2, track 1 from this.  Had a chance to see LH a few years back, but my damned cousin got married the same night.  From all reports, I missed an event.

great ears you have Tom. I’m not sure if Stafford would have been the one I recognized. That’s a full ID and this one wasn’t ID’d before! 

Track 11 - Bang!  Track 5 from this.  I didn’t miss Bang.  He played as part of the Waterville, Maine film festival.  A friend helped organize it and steered the them towards Vietnam in large part to bring Billy in to perform.  It was epic.  One of the most compelling musicians I’ve ever watched perform.  The dude was as real as it gets.  Frank Lowe and Ahmed Abdullah were with him.  Mike Carvin, too.  REALLY miss this guy.  This is the “sequel” album.  Between the two, to my ear, there’s not a lost moment.


 

Bang was ID’d before but not the song/album! Jealous of you for witnessing him play especially with those guys!

18 hours ago, tkeith said:

Track 12 - I respect the musicianship, but this just misses for me.  It’s close, I mean it’s right there.  A former student used to tell me, “Keith, you know Klezmer started as a defense.”  Made me laugh every time.  Man, I’m KIND of in (it really is RIGHT there… I just miss hearing the individual in this).

Track 13 - I was half way to asking, “What in the f—?”  Obviously a very busy version of What Is This Thing Called Love (and not sure one I needed).  Okay, that’s Kenny Garrett being Kenny Garrett.  He sort of suffers from James Carter disease.  Just *play*, man!  No getting around his ability, but two minutes in, I have serious listener fatigue (again, engineer’s syndrome).  I just don’t hear the love in this music.

yeah this is Kenny.

18 hours ago, tkeith said:

Track 14 - No doubt.  Reggie.  Opener from this.  This album always gets lost in the shuffle.  I know I’m a broken record, here, but to my ear, it’s because of the way it’s recorded.  If this had been recorded 20 years earlier, there would be some breathing room in the sound.  There are some great moments on this, but I’d really like to kick the engineer in the shin. 
 

really? I never heard it that way. I just really love this album and especially the combination of some very, very good artists. That’s another full ID on your name Tom :)

18 hours ago, tkeith said:

Man, there was a LOT to like in this test.  Didn't realize how long it was until I finished, but lots of smiles for my ears.


Thanks Tom for your enthousiastic replies. Hope I did not do too much damage to your bank account ;)  And thanks for ID ing a couple of more. 
 

this leaves only 3 songs unidentified!

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Which 3?  allow me to be lazy and not trawl back through the thread :)

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1 hour ago, randyhersom said:

2, 8, 9 I believe

Correct!

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2 hours ago, Pim said:

I can see why you think of Iyer. He’s from the same decade. Funny no one likes the drummer. He is commonly regarded as one of the fresh talents of this time.

Must be Brian Blade, then.

2 hours ago, Pim said:

Thanks Tom for your enthousiastic replies. Hope I did not do too much damage to your bank account ;) 

 

Me, too.  I'm now "semi-retired," (meaning I got sick of the BS and walked).  We shall see.

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23 minutes ago, tkeith said:

Must be Brian Blade, then.

Me, too.  I'm now "semi-retired," (meaning I got sick of the BS and walked).  We shall see.

Not Blade either.

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2 minutes ago, Pim said:

Not Blade either.

I've just listened to 2 again and I'm wondering if it's Sorey although it's not 'musical' enough for his usual playing but it has the power that I remember from the only time I've seen him live. Obviously not his own piano trio recordings, the polar opposite in fact. 

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6 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

I've just listened to 2 again and I'm wondering if it's Sorey although it's not 'musical' enough for his usual playing but it has the power that I remember from the only time I've seen him live. Obviously not his own piano trio recordings, the polar opposite in fact. 

The drummer is Tyshawn Sorey indeed ;)

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1 hour ago, Pim said:

The drummer is Tyshawn Sorey indeed ;)

OK, so thinking about piano trios he's drummed for, is it Mario Pavone?  Would make sense with the prominence of the bass

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8 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

OK, so thinking about piano trios he's drummed for, is it Mario Pavone?  Would make sense with the prominence of the bass

Nope it’s not….

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On 9/17/2021 at 11:10 AM, tkeith said:

Track 14 - No doubt.  Reggie.  Opener from this.  This album always gets lost in the shuffle.  I know I’m a broken record, here, but to my ear, it’s because of the way it’s recorded.  If this had been recorded 20 years earlier, there would be some breathing room in the sound.  There are some great moments on this, but I’d really like to kick the engineer in the shin. 

Tell us more about the engineering differences.  I instinctively know I don't like recordings from this era as much as earlier ones, but have never fully realized why, have thought it must be a "freshness of concept" issue or something.  But I'm sure you're onto what my ear is hearing.

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19 minutes ago, Pim said:

Nope it’s not….

Hmm...Angelica Sanchez is my last offer in that case

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On 9/15/2021 at 8:01 AM, JSngry said:

Yeah, this weekend most likely, stay tuned!

Yes, this weekend.

TRACK ONE - I suppose it's a fair question to ask why so few (non?) America ttenor players adapted any elements of Archie Shepp's playing. As this cut shows, ther's things there to be used without being imitative. No idea who this is, but they hit it hard, if a little bit retro-y by the time it's over. Then again, minimalism/vamp/repetivie structures are still au-courant. No matter, they're doing with with conviction that is up front. I hope they make a lot of money at change the world!

TRACK TWO - Does anybody think of Brubeck when they compose stuff like this? It's like a Brubeck concept stretched out to a place where maybe there's intersections with other idea, so maybe its those other ideas that they're thinking about, not Brubeck. But the Venn Diagram tells you, you don't tell the Venn Diagram. I like this well enough even if it's not particularly revelatory.

TRACK THREE - Middle 70s, crisp as a fresh batch of chips with the oil still hot. I like this a lot After more than a few listens, I can place that tone to some Sonny Fortune records, so...Charles Sullivan, rihgt? That guy could play, pretty broad skill set, and developed well. One hopes that as we speak he is living long and prospering.

TRACK FOUR - That's the Kloss/Booker thing. Don Schlitten put together some great records. Kloss was still young then, not at all fully developed, but when presented with this group of giants, he did not flounder. Everybody else did what they came to do, as they always did. I think it's safe to say that any Don Schlitted Prestige record with even on of these participants (even young Eric Kloss) is goin to bring and hold interest.

TRACK FIVE - Not for me, sorry. I don't really like Bill Evans doing this, much less anybody else doing it, not Chick Corea, not anybody. Those changes go everywhere yet lead nowhere, not unlike an Elton John song.

TRACK SIX - Buddy Terry on Mainstream, the part of the record with Eddie Henderson. The other part has Wood Shaw. TOTALLY derivative, but...if you knew Buddy Terry's prior records, this one was a bit of a jolt. A good jolt.Glad to see Buddy Terry on a BFT, especially this record!

TRACK SEVEN - Doesn't have to work, but it does. No idea who it is.

TRACK EIGHT - Are these classical players? Even there "abandon" seems written. If it is, I give them a +. If this is improvised, a  - But it really sounds composed all the way through, even the piano parts that allude to Cecil (Cecil plays this stuff, but FASTER!). Objectively, with no background as to inten, I am ambivalent. Details of intent would be helpful, because sometimes a "totally objective" listen is impossible, like, ok, that's a door, so what, a door to where? why is there a door THERE? I mean, sometime objectivity leads to nothing but more questions. Such is the case here.

TRACK NINE - Why do I keep expecting this to break into "Boogie Woogie Waltz"? But it never does...it's one of those things that a listener needs to be all in or else don't bother. It doesn't falter, I'll say that.Right now, I'm not in the mood to be all-in, but I can tell that I could be at some other time.The only thing...that opening drone of open fourts, for the very fist note to be a #4 is really a cliche. But after that, it's all good here. Oh, it IS live, good!

TRACK TEN - oh....I should know this one,,,,something from the mid-70s Woody Shaw orb...that thing...it was my 70s "Pop" music in a lot of ways, that sound, that type of melody and harmony, that was just what was in the air, normal music that nobody could not hear. Of course, the dunderheads who were buying Boston records and shit like that, well...but screw them and that, THIS is my pop music form this time.Who among us cannot sing that melody?

TRACK ELEVEN - Beautiful.

TRACK TWELVE - Sounds like some things I've heard the Silk Road Ensemble do, and that's a complement. But i don't think this is them (I know it's not, the instrumentation isn't theirs). I like it, a good reading of a composition. Improvisation is secondary, it's a seasoning in the overall recipe, it's not the recipe itself. Besides, not everybody needs to improvise, being able to play a part with depth/feeling/meaning is just as important as being able to improvise with those same quality. And really, in the 21st Century, a great musician should be able to do both.

TRACK THIRTEEN - The REAL Kenny G. I hope thast one day he stops making the "burn" records and starts making a more modern context for himself. But as long as this is what he does, hey, it is what it is, and it is still excellent.

TRACK FOURTEEN - Workman, Rivers, Priester, Aklaff, and MISTER Andrew Hill. This is a masterful record made by masters. That's all that needs to be said.

Ok, not but the one thing I didn't like, and a lot that I did. Nicely done, and thank you!

 

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16 minutes ago, felser said:

Tell us more about the engineering differences.  I instinctively know I don't like recordings from this era as much as earlier ones, but have never fully realized why, have thought it must be a "freshness of concept" issue or something.  But I'm sure you're onto what my ear is hearing.

Limited knowledge, nowhere expertise.  I'm basing this on a combination of my ears and my own studio experiences.  Every GD piece of the drum kit is mic'd by it's own mic.  Go look at the videos of Monk's band being recorded (with Rouse).  Couple of mics above the kit (which is how I STILL do it when I record drums).  I went into the studio with a rock band, we laid down one take (which could have been a rehearsal if they'd just done a couple more), taking about 5 minutes.  This was after watching the engineer putz around for nearly two hours.  For the next eight hours, I watched this guy play reindeer games with everything from compression to digital manipulation of individual notes on individual tracks.  Finally got fed up and offered to play him a scale and let him construct his own solo for my part. 

Music isn't heard from the surface of the instrument, it's heard within the ambient setting.  That's why RVG's work was so great.  Everything now is hyper-polished and completely unreal.  It's like we record in virtual reality.  I freely admit to being a curmudgeon, but my ears tell me I'm also right.  Case in point:  Name ONE recording that is better than Kind of Blue.  #IsNotPossible

Mind you, I'll listen to someone with expertise explain all of this, but that's what I hear. I loathe recording engineers as a species.

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R-2895104-1499437491-9791.jpeg.jpg

It is no secret what god can do.

Having said that...there are different ways to record, and any way can sound good as long as people know what they're doing with the source material and what the endgame is.

But I rate live soundcrew at the lowest of the bunch, their only goal (usually, not always, gotta be fair here), is to create a Pavlovian bypass of rationality for any audience in any space.

Post RVG recording...some are fine by me, some are just rude and inconsiderate, period. Plus, you know, it's digital now, you can actually get a clean sound, which I file under Be Careful What You Ask For.

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8 minutes ago, JSngry said:

TRACK ONE - I suppose it's a fair question to ask why so few (non?) America ttenor players adapted any elements of Archie Shepp's playing. As this cut shows, ther's things there to be used without being imitative.

I'll speak only for me -- I'd LOVE to.  I just repeatedly prove incapable.  If I could get that Shepp thing in my playing, I could get by on one leg.

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37 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Yes, this weekend.

TRACK ONE - I suppose it's a fair question to ask why so few (non?) America ttenor players adapted any elements of Archie Shepp's playing. As this cut shows, ther's things there to be used without being imitative. No idea who this is, but they hit it hard, if a little bit retro-y by the time it's over. Then again, minimalism/vamp/repetivie structures are still au-courant. No matter, they're doing with with conviction that is up front. I hope they make a lot of money at change the world!

That sax player will be Martin Kuchen.  Well worth checking.

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