Vanguard R&B / Jazz intersection

[Rabshakeh]

It feels like the link between artists like Rahsaan Roland Kirk, Jaki Byard, and Archie Shepp doesn't get explored enough.

All of these artists essentially riff on a certain sort of African American pop music, somewhere between soul, pop and jazz (but not "soul jazz") that is epitomised to my idiot ears by Ray Charles' big band work. 

The first named set of musicians take this very populist music down (for the 1950s) quite avant garde paths, emphasising dissonance and going outside. It's a form of postmodernism that stands out in the 1950s and 1960s, during which "high culture" modernist vanguard thinking seems to have remained paramount. I found Kirk's (in particular) populism shocking when I first heard it. Their work is noticeably different to other vanguardists and traditionalists from the time, and even from the soul jazzers or retro/swing guys. Only Archie Shepp really seems to fit within the "New Thing", and, even then, it seems that this "post-modernist" streak emerged after he made his name, and then (unless I am wrong) did him no favours in the eyes of contemporary critics. I think that all of this changed significantly with the late 70s, when The Tradition came back into style, but even then, the soul/pop source material has continued unexplored.

I'd be interested in people's thoughts on this mode of music making. Is there a link, or is this all just desperate Monday morning procrastination. Are there any other musicians that fit into this category? 

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I feel you're probably right. However, I'm not at all familiar with Byard except from an uncertain number of sideman dates, and never listened to Shepp after 'Fire music' which I liked a lot, sold and never bought again. Every so often I feel that might have been a mistake. But there's all sorts of stuff in Rahsaan and Shepp.

And also in Pharoah Sanders, who's close to the honkers and screamers of the age of Big Jay McNeely. Many other avant garde sax players go back to the honkers. There's a thread somewhere here what I wrote about the honkers but I can't remember dealing with the avant garde much, if at all.

MG

[JSngry]

James Carter, especially with his organ group.

[Rabshakeh]

18 minutes ago, The Magnificent Goldberg said:

I feel you're probably right. However, I'm not at all familiar with Byard except from an uncertain number of sideman dates, and never listened to Shepp after 'Fire music' which I liked a lot, sold and never bought again. Every so often I feel that might have been a mistake. But there's all sorts of stuff in Rahsaan and Shepp.

And also in Pharoah Sanders, who's close to the honkers and screamers of the age of Big Jay McNeely. Many other avant garde sax players go back to the honkers. There's a thread somewhere here what I wrote about the honkers but I can't remember dealing with the avant garde much, if at all.

MG

I definitely agree on the honker heritage. 

With the above set, there is also something a bit different though - Polished mass market pop music from the African American tradition, as opposed to the grittier stuff like McNeely or the "greasier" stuff (I'm never sure whether that term is okay, but I don't know an alternative), both of which are for a slightly more selective adult audience. I think Shepp probably drew on it all, whilst keeping the distinctions between source material, where Kirk and Byard in particular seem to be coming out of that precise point in the tradition and commenting on it.

Not that Ray Charles isn't one of the greatest soul screamers of history, but he was also a smooth big band pop star too. Showing influence from that latter side (or the tradition from which it emanates) feels like quite a statement.

The only other artist who comes to mind is Bowie, who did something similar but two decades advanced in style with Brass Fantasy - a twist on a pop big band. 

[felser]

David Murray sometimes.

[mjazzg]

George Adams, sometimes?

Edited September 13, 2021 by mjazzg

[Rabshakeh]

1 minute ago, mjazzg said:

George Adams, sometimes?

Definitely, and even more so Don Pullen, who gets the Saturday Night / Sunday morning feel exactly.

[mjazzg]

So where does Mingus fit in as he connects to a few of these names?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

2 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

I definitely agree on the honker heritage. 

With the above set, there is also something a bit different though - Polished mass market pop music from the African American tradition, as opposed to the grittier stuff like McNeely or the "greasier" stuff (I'm never sure whether that term is okay, but I don't know an alternative), both of which are for a slightly more selective adult audience. I think Shepp probably drew on it all, whilst keeping the distinctions between source material, where Kirk and Byard in particular seem to be coming out of that precise point in the tradition and commenting on it.

Not that Ray Charles isn't one of the greatest soul screamers of history, but he was also a smooth big band pop star too. Showing influence from that latter side (or the tradition from which it emanates) feels like quite a statement.

The only other artist who comes to mind is Bowie, who did something similar but two decades advanced in style with Brass Fantasy - a twist on a pop big band. 

Lester Bowie (I assume not David) also recorded with Fela Kuti. That's not R&B but not entirely unlike it as Fela got lots of stuff from Jimmy Brown the Newsboy.

MG

5 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Definitely, and even more so Don Pullen, who gets the Saturday Night / Sunday morning feel exactly.

Yes, and Adams played with the Fatback Band. And Pullen played on Charles Williams splendid Mainstream albums, which are VERY solid soul jazz.

MG

[JSngry]

Y'all don't ever listen to James Carter?

[mjazzg]

Just now, JSngry said:

Y'all don't ever listen to James Carter?

Long time ago, not in the last 20 years. Always seemed to let his undoubted facility get in the way to my ears.  I guess I should try again

[Dan Gould]

47 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Y'all don't ever listen to James Carter?

Not after deciding his inside/outside schtick was mostly annoying.

[JSngry]

His last album for Blue Note turns Django tunes into dance music for the Post-Kamasi World, and succeed splendidly. I was as shocked as I was surprised! And pleased! Much to my surprise!

His organ trio records also have a lot of the Rahsaan-esque playing described in the OP.

I get that his "inside outside" thing can be annoying, and I don't know how much of that has really changed. But now that he's not on every 4th record that gets released anymore, and since he's seemed to shifted his repertoire to a more "populist" bent, I find myself enjoying him more now than I did then. Small doses effectively aimed, that sort of thing.

No matter, for anybody looking for that "type" of playing, I think that objectively he more than qualifies.

[Rabshakeh]

I like Carter a fair bit. Certainly a lot more than his peers. It's nice that he tried something that was a bit different.

The Django thing sounds worth checking out at least.

[JSngry]

27 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

The Django thing sounds worth checking out at least.

It's on Blue Note, no less!

[Rooster_Ties]

When a track from this came up randomly for me on Pandora on a long hike, I was absolutely shocked — and I immediately stopped to look up and confirm that Pandora had the artist name listed right — to see this fine 2006 tribute album to Junior Walker, by none other than Don Byron.

Don Byron?  That Don Byron?  Like, there isn’t some other tenor-playin’ Don Byron I ain’t never heard of before, is there?

Do the Boomerang – The Music of Junior Walker (Blue Note, 2006)

Haven’t heard it since, but I’ve been meaning to pick this up sometime, for about 6 months now…

(This is just the opening track, as I’m in an airport trying to board a plane — no idea if this track really helps make my point.)

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Rooster_Ties

[danasgoodstuff]

9 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

When a track from this came up randomly for me on Pandora on a long hike, I was absolutely shocked — and I immediately stopped to look up and confirm that Pandora had the artist name listed right — to see this fine 2006 tribute album to Junior Walker, by none other than Don Byron.

Don Byron?  That Don Byron?  Like, there isn’t some other tenor-playin’ Don Byron I ain’t never heard of before, is there?

Do the Boomerang – The Music of Junior Walker (Blue Note, 2006)

Haven’t heard it since, but I’ve been meaning to pick this up sometime, for about 6 months now…

(This is just the opening track, as I’m in an airport trying to board a plane — no idea if this track really helps make my point.)

 

I found this utterly unconvincing in its post-modernism, and I like at least some of Don's stuff.  There are many different ways do this thing, if it is a thing - I guess it's no more or less a thing than most things, if you get my drift.  So, submitted for your considerations as related things, if not exactly the same thing:

Billy Larkin & the Delegates - no high art concepts, just kinda jazz renditions of then current hits

Bennie Wallace - Twilight Time, populist but arty, Platters tittle tune, SRV & Doctor John 

Enrico Rava - On the Dance Floor, recent-ish big band modernist or post- tribute to Michael Jackson

Archie Shepp - Mama Too Tight, I think the original post was referencing later work, but I love this which sounds a lot like JB's Money Won't Change You to me

P. Sanders & Ed Kelly - You Send Me, just lovely

Maceo Parker - Roots Revisited, getting to a similar place from the other side

Sonny Rollins - much of his work in the '70s & '80s, especially on Tattoo You

David Murray - Shakill's Warrior with Don Pullen on organ, Pullen's also on the Maceo mentioned above

Scofield's Country For Old Men, reclaiming populism from the reactionaries, 'blues of a different color'.

Clifford Jordan's Leadbelly tribute, These are my Roots, as basic and as weird as he wanted to be

If this even is a thing, I don't see it as a fundamentally different thing than Soul Jazz, just an unorthodox parallel or fringe thing.

 

[HutchFan]

On 9/13/2021 at 0:39 PM, JSngry said:

His last album for Blue Note turns Django tunes into dance music for the Post-Kamasi World, and succeed splendidly. I was as shocked as I was surprised! And pleased! Much to my surprise!

His organ trio records also have a lot of the Rahsaan-esque playing described in the OP.

I get that his "inside outside" thing can be annoying, and I don't know how much of that has really changed. But now that he's not on every 4th record that gets released anymore, and since he's seemed to shifted his repertoire to a more "populist" bent, I find myself enjoying him more now than I did then. Small doses effectively aimed, that sort of thing.

No matter, for anybody looking for that "type" of playing, I think that objectively he more than qualifies.

Jim,

I didn't know about the record that you're describing -- I'm going to look into it -- but it's actually Carter's second album of Django tunes.  His first was called Chasin' the Gypsy, released on Atlantic back in 2000.  Have you heard that one?  I don't have much by Carter, but I like that album very much. 

OTOH, I don't think the music on that record is in the spirit of this thread: Not an organ trio. Not R&B-ish or populist.  ... But good.

 

[JSngry]

Yeah, I know that one. I like it well enough, but it's a "jazz record', if you know what I mean. This Blue Note record, you can actually have it on at a party, like if it was 1965 and it was a Ramsey Lewis record. That kind of an energy.

Say what you want about Don Was, but he's not afraid for his Blue Note records to sound like the times in which they're made!

[HutchFan]

On 9/13/2021 at 6:53 AM, Rabshakeh said:

I'd be interested in people's thoughts on this mode of music making. Is there a link, or is this all just desperate Monday morning procrastination. Are there any other musicians that fit into this category? 

I think James Moody might fit in there somewhere.

The more I listen to Moody's music, the more I hear connections between him and Ray Charles' bands.  I know people say Ray Charles "invented" Soul music (and if you're going to put him one category that's probably where he belongs), but one of the wonderful things about Charles' band was that it went all over the place style-wise.

And (some) Moody bands too.

 

2 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Yeah, I know that one. I like it well enough, but it's a "jazz record', if you know what I mean. This Blue Note record, you can actually have it on at a party, like if it was 1965 and it was a Ramsey Lewis record. That kind of an energy.

Say what you want about Don Was, but he's not afraid for his Blue Note records to sound like the times in which they're made!

Sounds good.  I'm gonna check it out.

 

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

James Moody was a big influence on Hank Crawford. I've been getting into a good bit of his Argo/Cadet material this year and it's fine but, in my view, it ain't anything like a vanguard.

MG

[danasgoodstuff]

13 hours ago, The Magnificent Goldberg said:

James Moody was a big influence on Hank Crawford. I've been getting into a good bit of his Argo/Cadet material this year and it's fine but, in my view, it ain't anything like a vanguard.

MG

Yes, IIRC the liners on one of Hank's albums on Atlantic talks about that, quotes Hank on how much he digs Moody, and he plays some Moody comp or two on it as well.