Monk's First Two Riverside Albums

[Teasing the Korean]

Does anyone know why Monk's first two Riverside albums consisted entirely of tunes by other composers?  Was this a producer-driven decision, or was it Monk's idea?

[jazzbo]

Keepnews wanted to show Monk was a bit more normal and even more accessible as a way to get some sales and recognition. It was his "idea."

[Teasing the Korean]

32 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

Keepnews wanted to show Monk was a bit more normal and even more accessible as a way to get some sales and recognition. It was his "idea."

Who signs Monk expecting him to be normal?    Keepnews, apparently. 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Teasing the Korean

[jazzbo]

13 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Who signs Monk expecting him to be normal?    Keepnews, apparently. 

I'm sure Keepnews knew exactly how normal Monk was. I may have misstated above. I think he was trying to bring Monk out of obscurity and into a more mainstream stance with the buying public.

The second album I love, one of my favorite Monk albums.

Edited September 29, 2021 by jazzbo

[Teasing the Korean]

6 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

I'm sure Keepnews knew exactly how normal Monk was. I may have misstated above. I think he was trying to bring Monk out of obscurity and into a more mainstream stance with the buying public.

Understood.  

[JSngry]

A quiet secret about Keepnews/Riverside (or maybe it was Bill Grauer's doing?) was their early-ish line (such as it was) of "polite" (relatively speaking) piano albums of standards. They even got Randy Weston to do one!

 

[Guy Berger]

1 hour ago, jazzbo said:

I'm sure Keepnews knew exactly how normal Monk was. I may have misstated above. I think he was trying to bring Monk out of obscurity and into a more mainstream stance with the buying public.

The second album I love, one of my favorite Monk albums.

Agreed on the 2nd album, it’s a classic.  
 

The Ellington album is IMHO kind of dull and a missed opportunity.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I love 'em both. Wish he'd done more, but he obviously could have, had he wished. So...

MG 

[danasgoodstuff]

They wanted to show that he could indeed play, since the common perception was that he couldn't,  So an album of Ellington, an album of standards, then Brilliant Corners.  And it worked, Blue Note and Prestige had let him go because they were losing money on him.  Riverside made him marketable to the point where he left them for Columbia, a major label.  I'm kind of surprised anyone here would even ask.

[Gheorghe]

I saw a video or DVD of a film about Monk and Orrin Keepnews is seen and talks about Monk and says exactly, what @jazzbo posted: That it was his idea, to get Monk out of obscurity. 

I like the Ellington album. If I play myself "I Got it Bad", it also sounds like the Monk version because that´s how my fingers land on the keyboard. 

For all who like Monk playing Ellington the recordings from late 1969 at "Berliner Jazztage" are highly recommended. The Motto of the "Jazztage" was Ellington´s 70th Birthday and Monk agreed to play solo,  only Ellington tunes. It´s even greater than the Riverside album, because of Monk´s fantastic left hand. That´s first class stride piano. especially on "Cararvan". It was a huge success at a late stage of he career. 

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

16 minutes ago, Gheorghe said:

For all who like Monk playing Ellington the recordings from late 1969 at "Berliner Jazztage" are highly recommended. The Motto of the "Jazztage" was Ellington´s 70th Birthday and Monk agreed to play solo,  only Ellington tunes. It´s even greater than the Riverside album, because of Monk´s fantastic left hand. That´s first class stride piano. especially on "Cararvan". It was a huge success at a late stage of he career. 

Ah! I'd better see if I can get this, then.

MG

 

Oh, is this only a concert? Not an album?

MG

[Gheorghe]

11 minutes ago, The Magnificent Goldberg said:

Ah! I'd better see if I can get this, then.

MG

 

Oh, is this only a concert? Not an album?

MG

It is on a DVD of Monk in Paris (quartet), and 3 tracks Monk solo in Berlin playing Ellington. 

The Paris stuff is also interesting, it is one of the last occasions where Charlie Rouse played with Monk. And it shows a backstage encounter with Kenny Clarke. And at one point, Philly Joe Jones sits in. 

The drummer on that occasion is a very young boy, Paris Wright, the son of bassist Herman Wright. The only thing is that he seems to speed up, some tunes start at a certain tempo and than Wright starts running and it becomes faster, that´s quite disappointing. The really magic moment starts, when Monk calls Philly J.J. and Philly lifts the stage up. Then there is a very nice interview of Monk, done by french bassist Jacques Hess (who also played with Bud Powell in 1961 in Italy). Monk seems to enjoy listenig to the french commentaries of Jacques, since Monk himself knew a little French from High School. The best point is when Hess asks Monk which of his compositions he himself likes most and Monk says "I didn´t rate them!"
And there is a solo version of Monk doing "Sweetheart of my dreams" with a wonderful stride piano.

The last three tunes are the Berlin stuff Monk plays Ellington. Fantastic !!!!!

[Shrdlu]

Monk liked Orrin Keepnews because Orrin wrote an insightful article about Monk. I think what Riverside did with Monk was great.

I have revisited the Blue Note recordings over the last few days, and I find them rather dreary, to be honest. The engineering (pre-Rudy) is not very good and the horn solos are rather lame. The tracks are short 78 items, so there is little room for piano solos when there are horns. The trio sides are better, but Art Blakey is not as rich sounding as he is on the 1955 Jazz Messengers date. The horns are fine, at last, on the 1952 session with Kenny Dorham, Lou Donaldson and Lucky Thompson. I like the 1948 session with Milt Jackson: for me, that is the most effective. I can see why Blue Note had difficulty selling the recordings as a whole.

Monk's Prestige recordings, which followed the Blue Note ones, were very good.

[Teasing the Korean]

5 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

  I'm kind of surprised anyone here would even ask.

We can't all know everything.  I didn't know the circumstances of Monk leaving Blue Note or Prestige. 

2 hours ago, Shrdlu said:

I have revisited the Blue Note recordings over the last few days, and I find them rather dreary, to be honest. The engineering (pre-Rudy) is not very good and the horn solos are rather lame. The tracks are short 78 items, so there is little room for piano solos when there are horns. The trio sides are better, but Art Blakey is not as rich sounding as he is on the 1955 Jazz Messengers date. The horns are fine, at last, on the 1952 session with Kenny Dorham, Lou Donaldson and Lucky Thompson. I like the 1948 session with Milt Jackson: for me, that is the most effective. I can see why Blue Note had difficulty selling the recordings as a whole.

I adore the Blue Notes.  l reinstated the Milt Jackson tracks.  The brevity of the tracks really works for me.  They are like Monk's equivalent of the Raymond Scott Quintette 78s.

[mikeweil]

10 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

For all who like Monk playing Ellington the recordings from late 1969 at "Berliner Jazztage" are highly recommended. The Motto of the "Jazztage" was Ellington´s 70th Birthday and Monk agreed to play solo,  only Ellington tunes. It´s even greater than the Riverside album, because of Monk´s fantastic left hand. That´s first class stride piano. especially on "Cararvan". It was a huge success at a late stage of he career. 

Fully agreed. That's a fantastic performance. It can be found on youtu.be. 

[danasgoodstuff]

TTK,

You're right and this is a good reminder that everyone's experience is unique, but I did have the impression that this was well known.  Supposedly BN would've loved to keep recording him but just couldn't afford to and Riverside had to pay off some small sum owned to Prestige since Monk hadn't made back his advance yet.  Monk did varied but often good to great work for both, but to me he really comes into his own on Riverside and the Columbias are mostly coasting but often pretty good coasting.  He and Milt had a real simpatico and you're not the only one to hear a connection to Raymond Scott, I think both Zorn and Don Byron would agree with you.

If not for Riverside, Monk could've ended up like Herbie Nichols - a few interesting recordings cherished by collectors and then obscurity.

[Teasing the Korean]

57 minutes ago, danasgoodstuff said:

TTK,

You're right and this is a good reminder that everyone's experience is unique, but I did have the impression that this was well known. 

It probably is well-known, and it is probably something I should've known by now but only just learned.  

Edited September 29, 2021 by Teasing the Korean

[mjazzg]

13 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

It probably is well-known, and it is probably something I should've known by now but only just learned.  

Me too

[danasgoodstuff]

Not everyone reads liner notes as voraciously as I.  And I should know better than to assume that they do.

[JSngry]

It's ok to know stuff, even if it involves reading 

[felser]

18 hours ago, Shrdlu said:

Monk liked Orrin Keepnews because Orrin wrote an insightful article about Monk. I think what Riverside did with Monk was great.

I have revisited the Blue Note recordings over the last few days, and I find them rather dreary, to be honest. The engineering (pre-Rudy) is not very good and the horn solos are rather lame. The tracks are short 78 items, so there is little room for piano solos when there are horns. The trio sides are better, but Art Blakey is not as rich sounding as he is on the 1955 Jazz Messengers date. The horns are fine, at last, on the 1952 session with Kenny Dorham, Lou Donaldson and Lucky Thompson. I like the 1948 session with Milt Jackson: for me, that is the most effective. I can see why Blue Note had difficulty selling the recordings as a whole.

Monk's Prestige recordings, which followed the Blue Note ones, were very good.

I agree with  you on several points.  The Jackson is my favorite BN, and it's always been shocking to me how clueless the horns sound on the 1947 "Round Midnight".  I like the Prestige sessions a lot, especially "Friday the 13th" with Newk and Julius Watkins.

[Gheorghe]

21 hours ago, Shrdlu said:

Monk liked Orrin Keepnews because Orrin wrote an insightful article about Monk. I think what Riverside did with Monk was great.

I have revisited the Blue Note recordings over the last few days, and I find them rather dreary, to be honest. The engineering (pre-Rudy) is not very good and the horn solos are rather lame. The tracks are short 78 items, so there is little room for piano solos when there are horns. The trio sides are better, but Art Blakey is not as rich sounding as he is on the 1955 Jazz Messengers date. The horns are fine, at last, on the 1952 session with Kenny Dorham, Lou Donaldson and Lucky Thompson. I like the 1948 session with Milt Jackson: for me, that is the most effective. I can see why Blue Note had difficulty selling the recordings as a whole.

Monk's Prestige recordings, which followed the Blue Note ones, were very good.

Thanks for that great review of the two BN albums of Monk. My first Monk listening was the paperbag-cover double LP of Monk, that was on sale in the 70´s. I completly agree to you about the horns on the 1947 sessions, the horns are quite weak and quite obscure players, and the tracks only of the length of 78 discs. And the recording sound is terrible. It sounds like recordings I made in the 70´s with a simple cassette recorder with one very little integrated mike. Hard to believe this was made in a professional studio. So I´m quite sure it didn´t sell well, not only because the audience still was not prepared for that kind of music and sounds, even for the increasing audience of Bird, Diz, Bud and so on. 

The 1948 session is very interesting, but even worse recorded, and that a bit doggish voice of Kenny Hagood sounds better on the air checks with Fats Navarro and Tadd Dameron, or with Bird or Diz as a ballad feature. And it is strange to hear in D natural rather than in the usual key of A flat. The "Evidence" still is not completly developed, but all the tunes were played by Monk until the end of his career. 

I like the 1951 tracks with Sahib Shihab and Milt Jackson ! 

The trio tracks........ well I always like tracks with a horn added more. Blakey sounds a bit strange. The best early Blakey I heard is on the 1950/51 sides from Birdland live. 
The 1952 session is very fine. 

But it is astonishing, how weak the recording sound still was. 1947-52 was not the beginning of recording history, but it sounds like if the technologies used here might be from some decades earlier.....I´m not an audiophile and my hearing is not so good, I had a 20% missing since my birth and now at 62 after a playing and hearing music and loving the stronger drummers á la Elvin Jones, Philly J.J, and so on, it´s worse, even if it´s strange that I don´t turn up the volume as much as I did. Only hearing dialogs on TV, especially if there are background noises, is quite a challenge for me.....

Edited September 30, 2021 by Gheorghe

[Shrdlu]

In my comment, I missed saying that I like the July 23, 1951 Blue Note Monk session with Milt Jackson. Milt was an outstanding interpreter of Monk's compositions.

[Gheorghe]

2 hours ago, Shrdlu said:

In my comment, I missed saying that I like the July 23, 1951 Blue Note Monk session with Milt Jackson. Milt was an outstanding interpreter of Monk's compositions.

Yes , I also thought that you might have not mentioned the Mit Jackson date. Yes, Milt Jackson was outstanding, also on the late 1954 date with Miles, Bags, Monk. 

[Guy Berger]

5 hours ago, Shrdlu said:

In my comment, I missed saying that I like the July 23, 1951 Blue Note Monk session with Milt Jackson. Milt was an outstanding interpreter of Monk's compositions.

2 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

Yes , I also thought that you might have not mentioned the Mit Jackson date. Yes, Milt Jackson was outstanding, also on the late 1954 date with Miles, Bags, Monk. 

The 1954 date is my favorite pre-1956 Miles, EASY.

Imho the reason the Milt/Monk collaborations work so well is that Monk injects much-needed grit into Milt’s effortless, slick bluesiness