Moody modern piano stylings

[Rabshakeh]

Brad Mehldau, the Bad Plus, Jason Moran. All given to moody broodiness of quite a specific, rather cold type. Not a lot of humour or stomp in there. Big Important Chords. There must be lots of other examples too.

Where does this style derive from? Keith Jarrett, perhaps? Possibly Evans, but his style feels different. Wash over from Radiohead? Who were the progenitors?

Do you still see this style as existing or was it a 90s/00s thing? 

Perhaps you don't hear the relationship. If so, feel free to call me tin eared.

[Pim]

Not sure it’s what you mean exactly but when I think about broodiness: it’s a word that I used a lot on my Mal Waldron blog. Mal’s music is serious stuff and he could set an atmosphere that is hard to describe. But dark or brooding comes close to it. Some examples:

 

[Rooster_Ties]

Jason Moran studied with Andrew Hill and Jaki Byard — though of the two, I’d ascribe more influence to Hill (especially for Moran’s first 10-15 years of recording).

Hill is certainly moody, and much of his music is dark — but it’s quite a variety of heavy and lighter textures, and a murky middle especially (all while still being dark).

I wouldn’t want to pin a disproportionate amount of credit to Hill, but he was certainly operating in that realm.

[Teasing the Korean]

Does the OP mean moody contemporary piano stylings?  The modernist stuff would have been done in the 1940s and 50s.  

[Rabshakeh]

6 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Does the OP mean moody contemporary piano stylings?  The modernist stuff would have been done in the 1940s and 50s.  

Modern in the sense of recent. Not in the sense of belonging to the modernist period. 

3 hours ago, Pim said:

Not sure it’s what you mean exactly but when I think about broodiness: it’s a word that I used a lot on my Mal Waldron blog. Mal’s music is serious stuff and he could set an atmosphere that is hard to describe. But dark or brooding comes close to it. Some examples:

Mal's different though, isn't he? More repetitive and stylish. Less teenaged? 

1 hour ago, Rooster_Ties said:

Jason Moran studied with Andrew Hill and Jaki Byard — though of the two, I’d ascribe more influence to Hill (especially for Moran’s first 10-15 years of recording).

Hill is certainly moody, and much of his music is dark — but it’s quite a variety of heavy and lighter textures, and a murky middle especially (all while still being dark).

I wouldn’t want to pin a disproportionate amount of credit to Hill, but he was certainly operating in that realm.

Hills maybe in there. But he strikes me as having quite a lot going on: complex interweaving dissonances and Latin themes. I don't get that from Mehldau and Moran. 

[Niko]

1 hour ago, Rooster_Ties said:

I wouldn’t want to pin a disproportionate amount of credit to Hill, but he was certainly operating in that realm.

my thought exactly... other examples of the described style come from Scandinavia... EST was hugely popular for a while... people where trying to do stuff like this in the early 90s, and, indeed, everyone was listening to Radiohead at the time... Reflections by Bobo Stenson is an excellent album in that style from 1993... there were also those ECM trio albums of Peter Erskine with John Taylor... I find it plausible that people where aiming at a niche between Jarrett Standard Trio and Radiohead there...

[mjazzg]

I don't hear Moran belonging to this trend. Listening to his output as they were released they came from a different source than Mehldau and Bad Plus and I suspect Rooster Ties nails that difference with the Hill and Byard influences. 

I saw Bandwagon and the Mehldau trio a good few times and they were very different to my ears 

Also agree about EST who created a whole slew of, especially European, trios at the time and I also think influenced Mehldau to record 'Largo'.

Mehldau was always so serious and I think ended up disappearing up that seriousness. That early solo disc 'Elegaic' I found almost comically self-aware. I say this as someone who has twelve Mehldau Trio CDs (just counted them) that I haven't listened to in easily five years. They were good live.

I think the whole Radiohead and rock covers thing, especially Bad Plus, was probably more of a record company crossover impetus. I am a Radiohead atheist and quite happy to add their influence on Jazz piano trios to the list of crimes against music they have been guilty of.. - I know this is not a popular stance.

I wouldn't put Stenson anywhere near the other guys, different class, different heritage and his trio recordings all stand the test of time to my ears.

My conclusions, Bad Plus chancers; Brad Mehldau, frustrated academic; Moran, had and still has something to say - a talent. EST, ok for one album.

Helge Lein and all the others, forgotten...

And then there was the sub genre of Nick Drake covers, couldn't seem to move for them. Maybe because I love the originals so much but I found them no more than mildly diverting 

Edited December 12, 2021 by mjazzg

[Niko]

I wasn't really intending to put Stenson in the same category, just wondering whether he deserves some of Jarrett's credit here for developing that formula for piano trio music...

[mjazzg]

Oh sorry, I misunderstood you.

I hear Stenson coming from a more European tradition, Jan Johannson for instance,  and possibly Evans than Jarrett. None of that bouncy country-tinged Jarrettism.

Stenson's choice of covers are always very interesting.

But I haven't given it that much thought to be honest

[HutchFan]

Pim notes Mal Waldron, and Ethan Iverson (formerly) of The Bad Plus has described the considerable influence that Waldron had on his development. But Iverson has also pointed to bop pianist like Bud Powell and Barry Harris as influences.

I think the three pianist named in the original post are very different. Not sure that's there's going to be a singular common root, aside from the broad spectrum of history, with each of them mixing their own cocktails from it.

... Eclecticism rules the day, then and now.

Edited December 12, 2021 by HutchFan

[Rabshakeh]

5 hours ago, mjazzg said:

And then there was the sub genre of Nick Drake covers, couldn't seem to move for them. Maybe because I love the originals so much but I found them no more than mildly diverting 

What are these? 

I probably overstepped by including Moran in with the others. He definitely is different, and from a different generation too. 

I have found this an interesting read (having been at work all day since posting the original). The Very Serious trend in American piano jazz in the 90s/00s does have clear links to the ECM and European trends at the same time. It's not a style that we tend to discuss on this board. I started listening to jazz just as it was fading, and it's a period that I still don't know much about.

[Niko]

Indeed, Moran didn't belong into the list... and besides ECM, ACT deserves some recognition in your trend... regarding Nick Drake, holding the original against Mehldau's version of River Man was a defining moment in my own very short career as an aspiring artist

[mjazzg]

5 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

What are these? 

Now you're testing my memory but the one that does come immediately to my mind is this http://nicksmart.co.uk/?page_id=39 l must dig it out again.

Other than that it's just a memory that Drake became coverable once Mehldau did 'River Man'

5 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

What are these? 

I probably overstepped by including Moran in with the others. He definitely is different, and from a different generation too. 

The Very Serious trend in American piano jazz in the 90s/00s does have clear links to the ECM and European trends at the same time. 

Are you saying that, Moran discounted, you think Bad Plus and Mehldau have the links with ECM and European trends? If so, which recordings on both sides of that link are you thinking about?

I'm still struggling to see the link really or even the Very Serious trend in US recordings, with the exception perhaps of Mehldau.

'Largo' aside I hear Mehldau as very American with a dose of his Beethoven seriousness and wouldn't immediately place him in the ECM sphere.

I think there's a strong European piano trio trend that runs through ECM and as Niko points out through ACT too. 

[JSngry]

Paul Bley, pretty much about it imp. There's different, bit, uh....

[Rabshakeh]

4 hours ago, mjazzg said:

Are you saying that, Moran discounted, you think Bad Plus and Mehldau have the links with ECM and European trends? If so, which recordings on both sides of that link are you thinking about?

I'm still struggling to see the link really or even the Very Serious trend in US recordings, with the exception perhaps of Mehldau.

'Largo' aside I hear Mehldau as very American with a dose of his Beethoven seriousness and wouldn't immediately place him in the ECM sphere.

I think there's a strong European piano trio trend that runs through ECM and as Niko points out through ACT too. 

More the vibe. Sorry, I’m all over the place at the moment.

[Peter Friedman]

As I read through this thread, my conclusion is that with only very rare exceptions, none of the pianists considered hold any interest for me.

[Rabshakeh]

I guess that the flip side of this question is, what happened to the major non moody acoustic piano stylists? Even Jason Moran and Vijay Iyer, who, on the basis of the above, do not appear to have much of a link to e.g. Mehldau, are pretty dour.  It feels like not only the influence of Bud Powell, Red Garland and Bobby Timmons etc has dried up completely, but also the interest in playing colourful or joyful music on acoustic piano. 

 

Then again, perhaps I’m missing some obvious examples.

[mikeweil]

Have you heard Geoff Keezer's solo piano CDs?

[Rabshakeh]

9 minutes ago, mikeweil said:

Have you heard Geoff Keezer's solo piano CDs?

No. Or of him.

With which would you start?

[mikeweil]

This shows pretty well what he can do.

[Rabshakeh]

Thanks! 

[Rooster_Ties]

Anyone else feel like most solo Brad Mehldau recordings — at least all of the live ones I’ve ever heard — sound almost like an entirely different player and totally different concept, than Mehldau’s sublime trio work? — with its usually intricate and sympathetic interplay with the rest of his band.

I like both, mind you — and I’ve heard both live too (in person).

But it’s like two different worlds.  I’m tempted to chalk it up to one HUGE difference, that being the liberal use of the sustain petal in Brad’s solo playing, almost building up walls of sound. It’s muddy as hell, but the effect can be sometimes almost trance inducing for the listener (maybe for Brad too? — I couldn’t say).

Half of me thinks the solo Mehldau live is just brilliant, and miles above my head. But half of me occasionally wonders if the relentless ‘sustentation’ isn’t also a bit of a cheap parlor trick. Maybe a little of both?

NOTE: I’m NOT talking about the more contrapuntal solo studio playing Brad does, like Elegiac Cycle and the like (some 20 years ago). But the more muddy sonic melange of some of his more recent solo live stuff (I seem to remember an 8 CD box I did a short deep dive on, from online streaming sources a couple years ago, iirc).

All of Mehldau’s music — when I’m in the right mood for it (which isn’t always) — is just otherworldly, even as different as his solo live stuff is from his trio stuff.

[JSngry]

5 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

 It feels like not only the influence of Bud Powell, Red Garland and Bobby Timmons etc has dried up completely, but also the interest in playing colourful or joyful music on acoustic piano. 

That was a social music born of a particular time, place, and people. That hasn't exactly dried up completely, but this is definitely a different time, place, and peoples than was that.

[Rabshakeh]

19 minutes ago, JSngry said:

That was a social music born of a particular time, place, and people. That hasn't exactly dried up completely, but this is definitely a different time, place, and peoples than was that.

Sure. But "happy music" hasn't dried up. Why are so many modern piano trio and solo record so moody? It's not true of the saxophone or guitar stuff.

And let's be honest - modern piano trio music is hardly particularly up to date, whether happy or sad.

[JSngry]

Just now, Rabshakeh said:

Sure. But "happy music" hasn't dried up. Why are so many modern piano trio and solo record so moody? It's not true of the saxophone or guitar stuff.

And let's be honest - modern piano trio music is hardly particularly up to date, whether happy or sad.

Who's playing all this moody music? Where are they from, what is their story?

Hell, Red Garland used to be a boxer. Bobby Timmons used to boost TVs (with Lee Morgan, no less!). Bud was just....Bud, a genius, so don't count him in all this. Bud was not a part of this world, not like that.

Who are these people today? Maybe their moody IS their happy?

I don't know, but I don't have unlimited patience with all that, if you know what I mean. At some point, fight back, throw a punch, jack a TV. Show some joy about THAT.