How much music would you say has been lost?

[Hardbopjazz]

I’ve been looking through my discographies, such as the Savoy, and Verve, and there are a number of sessions that don’t seem to have made to the digital age. This makes ask the question of this thread. How much music has been lost through the years?  

[Big Beat Steve]

Are you also drawing a line between unreleased sessions or tracks that are known to have existed but have never ever been released so far (and may well be definitely "lost") and sessions that were relased originally but never reissued? (Which would mean, however, that they haven't even made it to the pre-digital age, strictly speaking).
In fact I find that in the "digital age" a lot that has never been reissued on vinyl has finally been made avialable on CD at last - and for the first time again since its original release. But if I look at my Jepsen, Nicolausson or Leadbitter/Slaven discographies it seems to me that a lot has still been bypassed (particularly from the 78 rpm era). But to give an even approximate percentage? Impossible ...

 

[JSngry]

As long as there's some kind of record, it's not lost. That's why people still go after 78s, 45s, LPs, even, I suppose, cassettes. It's the preservationist instinct.

[Hardbopjazz]

2 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Are you also drawing a line between unreleased sessions or tracks that are known to have existed but have never ever been released so far (and may well be definitely "lost") and sessions that were relased originally but never reissued? (Which would mean, however, that they haven't even made it to the pre-digital age, strictly speaking).
In fact I find that in the "digital age" a lot that has never been reissued on vinyl has finally been made avialable on CD at last - and for the first time again since its original release. But if I look at my Jepsen, Nicolausson or Leadbitter/Slaven discographies it seems to me that a lot has still been bypassed (particularly from the 78 rpm era). But to give an even approximate percentage? Impossible ...

 

I wasn't considering unissued. But there are many sessions in the Savoy discography that when I do a search on the internet I don't find any hits.

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

As long as there's some kind of record, it's not lost. That's why people still go after 78s, 45s, LPs, even, I suppose, cassettes. It's the preservationist instinct.

True, as long as someone has a copy the music isn't lost, provided he or she can ensure the record/tape is save for generations to come. 

[Big Beat Steve]

16 minutes ago, Hardbopjazz said:

True, as long as someone has a copy the music isn't lost, provided he or she can ensure the record/tape is save for generations to come. 

With the result that it sometimes is easy to trace the origins of a particular obscurity. I remember compilation LP reissues of one R&B 45 from the late 50s that must have been dubbed from some exceedingly scratchy original 45 (for lackof a better copy) that proved impossible to clean up properly. Over time the track appeared on 2 or 3 more compilations - with the same scratches and crackles, so obviously lifted from the same 45 or (more likely) "first reissue".

As for what you say about Savoy releases that do not seem to exist anywhere except in the discographies, I will have to check on occasion myself. No doubt they include some R&B items that should sound tempting to me too.
I hope, though, that these are not cases like those 20s or early 30s blues 78s of which it was claimed for decades that no copy had ever been found - until one was miraculously discovered in the 90s or 00s after all - decades after the fact.

[Hardbopjazz]

3 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

With the result that it sometimes is easy to trace the origins of a particular obscurity. I remember compilation LP reissues of one R&B 45 from the late 50s that must have been dubbed from some exceedingly scratchy original 45 (for lackof a better copy) that proved impossible to clean up properly. Over time the track appeared on 2 or 3 more compilations - with the same scratches and crackles, so obviously lifted from the same 45 or (more likely) "first reissue".

As for what you say about Savoy releases that do not seem to exist anywhere except in the discographies, I will have to check on occasion myself. No doubt they include some R&B items that should sound tempting to me too.
I hope, though, that these are not cases like those 20s or early 30s blues 78s of which it was claimed for decades that no copy had ever been found - until one was miraculously discovered in the 90s or 00s after all - decades after the fact.

Yes, R&B and gospel sessions.  

[JSngry]

Those Gospel records...they will likely still be found, but generally not in collector's outlets. More like thrift shops or garage sales, and some more than others.

It was a large audience, but a very niche audience, if that makes any sense.

[Milestones]

If anything, we live in an age of "found" music.  Consider that Bob Dylan's vast discography has probably been doubled by the massive and ongoing bootleg series.  In jazz, we see a similar thing with Miles Davis.

 

   

[Chuck Nessa]

More is out there than you can absorb.

 

[felser]

Staggering how much live Grateful Dead is on the market.  Allman Bros.  Phish.  Etc.

[Gheorghe]

In my case I think I have all of those old Savoy that was released, The Parker studio and live sessions, the Don Byas, the Billy Eckstine, Lester Young, Dexter, Howard McGhee , which all appeared before on LP, so I got it on CD also (for preservation instinct). I think in the 50´s they had a less role as a record label, they still made fine things, the fine Donald Byrd "All Green", the Hank Mobley, the Kenny Clark, and a very strange and abstract Mingus from 54/55, but they didn´t have that main role they had in the 40´s. And I heard they later had some other than jazz music also, but that was not of my own interest...

[Big Beat Steve]

Gheorghe, from what you say I'd bet you have only just scratched the surface with the obvious "usual suspects".
Do you have the LP by the Chuz Alfred group (or its Savoy-Denon CD reissue that DID exist so it's not even a "lost" item - but certainly an "under-the-radar" one)? Or Ronnelll Bright? John Mehegan? Eddie Bert? Mort Herbert? Sahib Shihab? Paul Williams? T.J. Fowler? Wild Bill Moore? Sir Charles Thompson? The Four Bars and A Melody group? The Beale Street Gang feat. Milt Buckner?

Just a random jotting of a few (major and minor) names from Ruppli's discography ...
And I think Hardbopjazz will understand what I am alluding to ...

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Big Beat Steve

[Gheorghe]

Big Beat Steve, I´m sure you are right and I really apreciate your point!

In my case, maybe once again the reason is more that I purchased what I found worth studying for own purposes. From the names you mentioned I sure know about Eddie Bert, Sahib Shihab, Sir Charles Thompson and Milt Buckner were. Eddie Bert with Mingus, Sir Charles Thompson for the 1944 album with both Bird and Dex, and Milt Buckner okay, the thing I liked most was his album with Illinois Jaquet in London (The King). 

I must admit I´m not a collector in the strict sens: I don´t buy records just to have something complete, it would take too much time and too much money. Years ago when that BN revival boom was, and that BN film I intended to buy most of the BN albums, spent too much money ordering them, even quite expensive  from Japan if they were not available in US, but to be onest: There are many albums I heard when they arrived , and later  forgot about them. "Hand auf´s Herz": Who needs to own all Jimmy Smith albums, all Lou Donaldson Albums, sure they all are fine and great but if I have to pick one I always get back to the "Date with Jimmy Smith" or the "Sermon", and about L.D. always "Blues Walk", Sonny Clark always "Cool Struttin", Hank Mobley always "Soul Station", and so on. 

[Big Beat Steve]

Actually my post was meant as a reply to your statement that you think you "have all those old Savoys that was released".
All the names I listed were ones that had releases on Savoy (and I own only some of them myself, and some I've never heard anywhere either). All this because Hardbopjazz was referring to items from the Savoy catalog that have never been reissued (and if they were, some were not circulated far) and may be "lost" to accessible jazz . There was a lot like that (and Savoy is just ONE example - it happens with virtually any label - major or indie), and quite a lot of these does have its musical merits IMO, at least to those who like to look off the beaten tracks of the GREAT names.
As you say, most collectors are no completists in every area of their muiscal interests. Some collector will get by with only a sampling of leader dates by artists that other collectors need every second of recorded music of, and course everyone has his own (differing) preferences.
But as I have always been attracted to and interested in exploring artists and recordings that seem to be "in the shadow" and bypassed by reissue programs I easily understand what Hardbopjazz was getting at.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Big Beat Steve

[John L]

Most music released on 78s, EPS, and LPs that never received a commercial release on CD or download form is not lost.  In fact, collectors have digitalized most of that music and circulate it among themselves.  There are some 78s that were supposedly released but have never been tracked down yet by collectors.  But that is something else.    The digital age is not responsible for music being lost.  On the contrary.  Music that used to be rare are heard by only a select few is now readily multiplied.   

[Big Beat Steve]

6 hours ago, John L said:

Most music released on 78s, EPS, and LPs that never received a commercial release on CD or download form is not lost.  In fact, collectors have digitalized most of that music and circulate it among themselves.  There are some 78s that were supposedly released but have never been tracked down yet by collectors.  But that is something else.    The digital age is not responsible for music being lost.  On the contrary.  Music that used to be rare are heard by only a select few is now readily multiplied.   

I agree. Although of course this restricts accessibilty even by "collector subculture" standards. Yet sometimes obscure music does not even remain strictly digitalized but does receive a "tangible" insiders' reissue. Such as this one which certainly took some fanatism to collate:

https://www.discogs.com/de/release/10187300-Various-The-Best-Of-Club-51-Records

(One of the obscurest Chicago post-war labels that received a "complete" treatment here ...)

Download - even via dedicated collectors' websites or blogs - can be a dangerous thing, though. I once very narrowly avoided having my computer infected and ransomwared when I (for the first time just as a tryout) wanted to download an item from a Western Swing website that - along with serious historical information - had tons of downloadable music files up on its site (but seems to have had one of its servers hijacked where, for example, European visitors of the site were directed for downloading). So once bitten twice shy ....

Edited January 1, 2022 by Big Beat Steve

[Ken Dryden]

Jean-Luc Ponty told me during a phone interview a few years ago that he had recently discarded a number of concert recordings because he felt that he had released the best of them. 

I wonder how many artists discard unused material to prevent its later release. I believe that false starts and partial takes usually aren’t worth hearing a second time, with rare exceptions.

 

[Big Beat Steve]

3 hours ago, Ken Dryden said:

I wonder how many artists discard unused material to prevent its later release. I believe that false starts and partial takes usually aren’t worth hearing a second time, with rare exceptions.

 

Yet some seem to have seen enough interest in them to release them (with all their warts of incompleteness) anyway (Circle Records, anyone? )

It is a pity to see concert recordings destroyed, though.

[Hardbopjazz]

9 hours ago, Ken Dryden said:

Jean-Luc Ponty told me during a phone interview a few years ago that he had recently discarded a number of concert recordings because he felt that he had released the best of them. 

I wonder how many artists discard unused material to prevent its later release. I believe that false starts and partial takes usually aren’t worth hearing a second time, with rare exceptions.

 

Clifton Anderson has over 450 sound board recordings of his uncle Sonny Rollins. These are the source of the Road Show series. Hopefully none get discarded.  

[Ken Dryden]

When the bio/discography of bassist George Duvivier was published after his death, I learned that his final recording session consisted of duos with pianist James Williams, which were unissued. I asked Williams about them and he said that he (Williams) didn’t play well enough. I have no idea if he discarded the tapes or not. An inquiry to William Paterson University, which holds the pianist’s archives, was unanswered.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Ken Dryden

[JSngry]

Some shit gotta get lost, otherwise we'll run out of room.

[Ken Dryden]

Some stuff is lost in my house, mainly cassettes and CDRs of jazz broadcasts. Hopefully still in a box somewhere…

[Milestones]

Yes, sometimes music at home is devoured like socks in the washer/dryer.

 

 

 

[Ken Dryden]

One of the greatest losses was the second cassette with the remainder of Milt Jackson’s appearance on Billy Taylor’s Jazz at the Kennedy Center. Evidently I failed to label the second cassette and taped over it.

[Chuck Nessa]

Hard to tell what is out there and still survives.

I have a couple of reels given me by Charlie Weeks (stock broker and JIC board member) from jazz fest at Bard College in 1958. Performers include Ran Blake, Kenny Dorham, Jon Mayer, Pete Laroca, Barry Miles, Perry Robinson, Chuck Israel and possibly a panel discussion with Martin Williams, John Hammond, Nesuhi Ertegun and Tom Dowd.

Just a hint of shit our there.