The COLEMAN HAWKINS thread

[EKE BBB]

That's a real good one! Actually it seems Pettiford was billed the leader at the actual concert, not Powell!

Original vinyl covers of this release:

Fontana

Debut

and then there´s the LP Black Lion BLP 30125 who presented this date as Hawk&Bud co-leaded date. No Pettiford-leaded releases, I´m afraid!

[Harold_Z]

Man ! There's a lot of good Hawk and this is another.

Hawk is playing his butt off on this one. The sound ain't the greatest, but it's listenable and Hawk's playing makes up for any deficiencies. Kenny Clarke is here and swinging and MOODY pops up on quite a bit of the disc!

There is a very swinging almost 8:00 minutelong THE MAN I LOVE on this

Edited March 26, 2004 by Harold_Z

[Alexander Hawkins]

Another good one with Little Jazz (and with the Rabbit) is "Alive! At the Village Gate!" (Verve, 1962).

...

And just another live recording, with the same title, the same rhythm section (Tommy Flanagan, Major Holley, and Eddie Locke) and from the same year... but without Hodges and Eldridge is "Alive! At the Village Vanguard!" (Verve, 1962).

Thanks! These look great - I'll have to track them down.

[Chrome]

I'm at work, so I don't have it with me, but I found a Hawkins disc titled "Body and Soul" that was labelled as a live recording from ... somewhere in South America. Roy Eldridge was on it, and I think Philly Joe Jones was the drummer ... but there was no indication of the CD's manufacturer, and I couldn't find anything like it on AMG.

Ring a bell with anyone?

At first I thought you might be referring to the Bayou club recordings, but I see from the literature that Roy and Hawk recorded with Joe Jones ( not Philly Joe) in Buenos Aires June 16 1961. Body and Soul was one of the tunes.

These are aparently part of a West Wind CD entitled Jazz Festival in Latin America.. there were 6 tracks, Body was a feature for Hawk, The Man I love for Roy.

Love for sale a trio for Tommy Flanagan.

The rest of the Cd was by other artists.

This may be what you have or some bootlegged verion of it.

PD: Okay, I have to ask: did you just KNOW that?

I went home and dug up the disc, and that seems to be pretty close.

"West Wind 2018" is printed on the disc and there's a little blurb indicating "Rec. at American Jazz Festival in Latin America, 16 Juli 1961 at Teatro Municipale, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil."

According to the track listing:

1. Rifftide: Hawkins, Eldridge, Flanagan, Abdul Malik, Jones (Jo, not Philly Joe)

2. The Man I love: Eldridge, Flanagan, Abdul Malik, Jones

3. Body and Soul: same as 1

4. Love for sale: Flanagan, Abdul Malik, Jones

5. Caravan: same as 1, but essentially a 6-minute Jones drum solo

6. Love come back to me: same as 1

The sound is okay, the playing is very enthusiastic, the uncredited liner notes are somewhat surreal. Some blah blah blah, then they end with "Later in his career, bearded like the prophet he was, Hawkins continued handing down his huge-toned jazz commandments until in 1969, ominously taciturn and worn thin from a permanent diet of lentil soup and brandy, he died."

[JSngry]

What I do find a bit tiring about Hawk sometimes, is his rather stiff phrasing. While harmonically, he's all over the place and then some, his phrases consisting almost entirely of eights can be a bit exhaustive.

I used to have the same "problem" w/Hawk when I first started checking him out, but when I wasn't looking, it all fell into place fr me and I started hearing the other things in his playing that I still marvel at, notably the way that his tone fits inside his lines perfectly, and how even though his lines are predominately steady eith note oriented (but not as consistently as you might think, depending on the session), his accents and subtle-but-very-real tonal variations create a tension/release within those eight notes (and within his harmonic dissections) that is quite engaging once one becomes aware of it (and it's not always obvious, that's for sure).

A whilke back, PD & I got into a discussion about Hawk, and I commented on what I percieved as his emotional quality, his stubborn refusal to display vulnerability of any sort, as well as the "mindset" of his playing, which I likened to a the type of person who enjoys taking things apart and putting them back together (and not always the way they were first assembled!), somebody who delights and finds satisfaction in the details themselves, not necessarily in the act of discovering them. In other words, a person for whom the ends mattered more than the means. I think that Hawks rhythmic style is a reflection of this "type". He seems to me to be so engrossed in what he's finding that how he's finding it doesn't really matter all that much to him.

In less esthetically attuned hands, this type of personality runs the danger of analytical roboticism, but Hawk was a "classicist" in the very highest sense of the word - he didn't just enjoy the details for their own sake, but instead for the greater beauty and nobility that they implied. Again, means to an end, not means for their own sake (which is also a perfectly wonderful esthetic in, like any esthetic, the right hands, hands which appreciate and understand what's going on to the highest, most subtle, extent).

It's all of a piece - look at how he dressed, always impeccable, "conservative", not flamboyant, but DAMN, every thing was of the highest quality, and everything was JUST right. Same with his reported love of fine automobiles - he seems to have appreciated the inherent beauty of a machine that both looked good and performed good, not as a stauts symbol, but becasue in his mind, that was the object of the game to "get it right" righter than as right as it could be given the tools at hand. Definitely the esthetic of the aforementioned "classicist", and that's an esthetic that's a bit at odds with a lot of things, even in his time, but still an esthetic that is impossible to find invalid unless one is willing to accept total chaos as the only valid perception of reality.

All of that to say this - you have to come to, and ultimately accept, Coleman Hawkins entirely on his own terms, because that is how he lived, thought and played (or so it seems). That means that his relative lack of rhythmic variety is something that one has to confront and come to term with, not for what it lacks, but for what it represents, if one is to deve;op a personal relationship with the man's music. I'm in no way saying that you HAVE to love it (which I'm not even sure is the result from a istener that Hawk was looking for anyway) or appreciate it (which may in fact be that desired result), but I do think that doing so opens more personal doors than looking for something that was probably never intended to be there in the first place.

Just my opinion based on my experience. Your mileage, of course, may vary.

Edited March 26, 2004 by JSngry

[Clunky]

I really enjoy a Hawk session on Crown with Thad Jones, Eddie Costa. Modern blowing session of superior quality.

But then I love anything with Costa !

[jazzbo]

I'm in total agreement---Costa adds to ANY session.

[king ubu]

What I do find a bit tiring about Hawk sometimes, is his rather stiff phrasing. While harmonically, he's all over the place and then some, his phrases consisting almost entirely of eights can be a bit exhaustive.

I used to have the same "problem" w/Hawk when I first started checking him out, but when I wasn't looking, it all fell into place fr me and I started hearing the other things in his playing that I still marvel at, notably the way that his tone fits inside his lines perfectly, and how even though his lines are predominately steady eith note oriented (but not as consistently as you might think, depending on the session), his accents and subtle-but-very-real tonal variations create a tension/release within those eight notes (and within his harmonic dissections) that is quite engaging once one becomes aware of it (and it's not always obvious, that's for sure).

A whilke back, PD & I got into a discussion about Hawk, and I commented on what I percieved as his emotional quality, his stubborn refusal to display vulnerability of any sort, as well as the "mindset" of his playing, which I likened to a the type of person who enjoys taking things apart and putting them back together (and not always the way they were first assembled!), somebody who delights and finds satisfaction in the details themselves, not necessarily in the act of discovering them. In other words, a person for whom the ends mattered more than the means. I think that Hawks rhythmic style is a reflection of this "type". He seems to me to be so engrossed in what he's finding that how he's finding it doesn't really matter all that much to him.

In less esthetically attuned hands, this type of personality runs the danger of analytical roboticism, but Hawk was a "classicist" in the very highest sense of the word - he didn't just enjoy the details for their own sake, but instead for the greater beauty and nobility that they implied. Again, means to an end, not means for their own sake (which is also a perfectly wonderful esthetic in, like any esthetic, the right hands, hands which appreciate and understand what's going on to the highest, most subtle, extent).

It's all of a piece - look at how he dressed, always impeccable, "conservative", not flamboyant, but DAMN, every thing was of the highest quality, and everything was JUST right. Same with his reported love of fine automobiles - he seems to have appreciated the inherent beauty of a machine that both looked good and performed good, not as a stauts symbol, but becasue in his mind, that was the object of the game to "get it right" righter than as right as it could be given the tools at hand. Definitely the esthetic of the aforementioned "classicist", and that's an esthetic that's a bit at odds with a lot of things, even in his time, but still an esthetic that is impossible to find invalid unless one is willing to accept total chaos as the only valid perception of reality.

All of that to say this - you have to come to, and ultimately accept, Coleman Hawkins entirely on his own terms, because that is how he lived, thought and played (or so it seems). That means that his relative lack of rhythmic variety is something that one has to confront and come to term with, not for what it lacks, but for what it represents, if one is to deve;op a personal relationship with the man's music. I'm in no way saying that you HAVE to love it (which I'm not even sure is the result from a istener that Hawk was looking for anyway) or appreciate it (which may in fact be that desired result), but I do think that doing so opens more personal doors than looking for something that was probably never intended to be there in the first place.

Just my opinion based on my experience. Your mileage, of course, may vary.

Jim, thanks a lot for this elaborate reply! What you say makes perfect sense to me. And don't get me wrong: I adore Hawk, I am absolutely in awe of him and his playing, and what you call his "mindset" or his "type of person" most certainly has a lot to do with that awe.

It's just that I cannot listen to him at any time. And there have been moments when I was, say, in the middle of "Genius" or said Impulse quartet date, and just couldn't take it anymore. Maybe it is too strong for me in these moments, too "stubborn" in the sense of, yes, him sticking to his never-show-vulnerability-"ethos" - that does not fit with my personality, and maybe that's the reason why I cannot listen to him at any given time. This again is not a reproach or a dislike, but rather a difference.

It's hard for me to put such things into words, even moreso as english is not at all a language I can easily use. Hope you can understand what I want to express.

ubu

[king ubu]

I really enjoy a Hawk session on Crown with Thad Jones, Eddie Costa. Modern blowing session of superior quality.

But then I love anything with Costa !

Sounds like one I should have! Is this on CD, and is it available?

ubu

[JSngry]

...don't get me wrong: I adore Hawk, I am absolutely in awe of him and his playing, and what you call his "mindset" or his "type of person" most certainly has a lot to do with that awe.

It's just that I cannot listen to him at any time. And there have been moments when I was, say, in the middle of "Genius" or said Impulse quartet date, and just couldn't take it anymore. Maybe it is too strong for me in these moments, too "stubborn" in the sense of, yes, him sticking to his never-show-vulnerability-"ethos" - that does not fit with my personality, and maybe that's the reason why I cannot listen to him at any given time. This again is not a reproach or a dislike, but rather a difference.

It's hard for me to put such things into words, even moreso as english is not at all a language I can easily use. Hope you can understand what I want to express.

ubu

Absolutely.

[Larry Kart]

These excerpts from Terry Martin's (I think brilliant) Oct. 1963 Jazz Monthly essay. "Coleman Hawkins and Jazz Romanticism" seem to touch upon some things that Jim S. and others have been talking about here. (BTW, Martin was only about 22 when he wrote this):

In his recent Cassell monograph on Coleman Hawkins, Albert McCarthy defends the long-held view of the tenorist as the arch-romantic of jazz, taking myself as an exponent of an opposing view suggested in some current criticism. Since I consider romanticism pure and simple, to be a rare flower in the jazz world and the limitation of Hawkins to this sphere a limited conception of his output, I should like to append a few brief remarks to my earlier comment on this musician (Jazz Monthly, December 1962). …

Coleman Hawkins was one of the first virtuosi in jazz. At the time of his striving to maturity two great virtuosi, Armstrong and Bechet, illuminated the jazz scene, and a third, Earl Hines, was imminent. The outcome of virtuosity was the creation of a new flamboyance of line, a new individualism. The baroque was in the air, and it is the essence of the baroque that pervades all of Hawkins’s work; if we must limit his style to some pigeon-hole then it will more often fit under B than R….

Baroque form is an extrapolation of classical continuity made possible by extended technical accomplishment. It comes at best from a joy in technique viz, the freedom to catch up any nuance of thought, at worst, abuse of technique and spurious subtlety. Clearly the first is only possible if the artist has something to say, the second’s just food for the larder. For Armstrong the baroque is a magnificent freedom, for Bechet a mouthpiece for his strong personality and for Hines a challenge. Hawkins, coming after, accepts it as a method in itself. Later I feel Armstrong was trapped, this time for good, by the style he more than any other has fathered. Bechet, something of an odd man out in jazz history, is perhaps hamstrung by his own ego however imposing it may be. Hines retains his power in the face of a challenge, but Hawkins survives best. Perhaps the need to form a language for the saxophone in terms of a new aesthetic language instilled this concern for method, but whatever, the range of his expression can reasonably be explained by an interest in the application of a method, in this case mainly of his own creation. Such an approach would be heresy to an orthodox romantic….

The puzzling fact is that in jazz romanticism did not flourish as it did in an analogous period in the history of European art; I gather that Mr. McCarthy also sees very few jazz-men as romantics. I do not wish to imply from the above that I associate myself with those who see romanticism as decadence; for the limited ranks of jazz romantics contain some very important artists, Johnny Hodges, Erroll Garner, Ben Webster. . . for example. The case of Ben Webster makes one wonder if it was the romantic attitude of many of Hawkins’s followers that led to the misconception of his baroque style.

I suppose Hawkins’s early ability to play ballads in a totally original way has also confused the issue, focussing an inproportionate attention on these solos. His approach to ballads is important to consider, however, because it is his main contribution to the expansion of the jazz repertoire. The significant innovation is his acceptance of the ballad on its own musical terms; he does not ‘jazz’ it as earlier musicians had done, even Armstrong to some extent. It is all too simple from a recognition of this achievement to transfer the romantic terms of the ballad to the outlook of the artist. Ben Webster will lend great romantic power to All the things you are (with Tatum) for example, giving truth to the weaker romanticism of the popular song, but Hawkins playing Body and soul is something else altogether. The difference is that Hawkins is more often involved in the statement than in the thing stated. The emotional power is generated by the solo in progress and does not pre-exist as it does for Webster.

Hawkins has forged techniques applicable by romantics because this is one aspect of his exploration of method; the tone, the harmonic basis all ideal, but not only his approach to other types of material but also the extraordinary objectivity of his ballads themselves belie a romantic mind. He exploits (n.b. the baroque attitude) ballad structure but does not accept its aesthetic axioms. If Webster can create All the things, All too soon, You’re my thrill etc. by such an acceptance, and Hawkins Body and soul by remaining aloof, both means are justified although quite distinct. One can accept, let us say, Donegal cradle song as a most beautiful romantic solo; however, its consideration as a romantic persona, a concept fully justified not only by the strength of his up-tempo playing, his complex thinking e.g. Body again (it is ironical and facile that thinking on tenor should be thought to be the property of his rival Lester Young) but also by the notably odd melodic nature of the solo itself, which seems to have taken the title of tune absolutely at face value. Despite the fact that only Hawkins could have created this moving persona it is purged of the artist’s personality to a degree untenable by any true romantic. Such dramatic objectivity seems to be quite beyond even the most impressionistic statement of Hodges, e.g. Gal from Joe’s (one is tempted to attribute the quality to Ellington in any case). A third approach to the ballad and one found frequently in his work is to begin richly and romantically, later to betray this by paring down his phrases into highly emotive rhythmic figures. An example of this is Until the real thing comes along….. His solo here has a very firm dramatic structure; it begins with only a few touches of rhythmic tension marring an easy romanticism, the bridge has a fine sensuous quality and leads beautifully back to the theme which now beccomes a series of short close notes which become even stronger in the chorus. The tough elements are bared slowly, no sudden burst of emotion this, to reach a climax in the power of the second bridge whiich now shows extreme contrast to the first. A similar lead-back return is to the rich theme statement, and the solo closes as it began; the whole is a finely shaped drama. Dramatic structure may in fact point to the core of Hawkins’ art. He handles his materials with the ease and cunning of a great dramatist, and as with great drama the meaning may not respond exactly with what the characters are made to say. It is the personae and the relations generated between them that contain the essence of the achievement.

It should be pointed out here that it is not the ‘hot’ elements of later Hawkins that undermine the theory of romanticism; Webster really drives along on Cottontail, Hoot, and others without being disqualified and much of Garner can hardly be said to be gentle. Hawkins’s self-awareness is as an artist, a creator not a sayer, and it is in this that he seems to be an important precursor of the modern idiom….

[EKE BBB]

Very interesting, Larry. Thanks!

[EKE BBB]

I really enjoy a Hawk session on Crown  with Thad Jones, Eddie Costa. Modern blowing session of superior quality.

But then I love anything with Costa !

Sounds like one I should have! Is this on CD, and is it available?

ubu

Coleman Hawkins - Fresh Sounds(Sp) FSR CD 14 & 15 "The Hawk Swings, v.1 & 2"

Thad Jones, tp; Coleman Hawkins, ts; Eddie Costa, p; George Duvivier, b; Osie Johnson, d.

a. Bean in orbit 6:05

b. After midnight 4:49

c. Moodsville 6:18

d. Cloudy 5:38

e. Almost dawn 9:05

f. Stake out 6:23

g. Cross town 5:13

Add Nat Pierce, p. Costa switches to vibraphone.

h. Hassle 6:39

i. Stalking 9:21

j. Shadows 5:55

Recorded 1960, N.Y.C.

Equivalent issues:

Vol. 1 - containing c,g-j

Crown CLP 5207 / CST 224 "The Hawk Swings"

Eros(E) ERL/ ERLS 50044 "The Hawk Swings"

Boplicity(E) CDBOP 015 "The Hawk Swings" Fresh Sound(Sp) FSR1O01 "The Hawk Swings v.1"

Fresh Sound(Sp)FSRCS14 "The Hawk Swings v.1"

Vol.2 - containing a,b,d-f

Crown CLP 5181/ CST 206 "Coleman Hawkins & his Orchestra"

Eros(E) ERL 50024 "Coleman Hawkins & his Orchestra"

Fresh Sound (Sp)FSR1O02 "The Hawk Swings v.2"

Fresh Sound (Sp)FSRCD15 "The Hawk Swings v.2"

The Fresh Sound vol.2 is currently available at their website (but not vol.1).

And the Boplicity CD is available at amazon.com (probably you´ll find it cheaper elsewhere)

[EKE BBB]

Interested in how you rate his final recordings as opposite to Pres last discs. From the little recorded evidence I´ve heard, Hawk´s hard drinking and little eating clearly damaged his faculties and authoritative blowing.

It´s been a long time since I heard "Sirius" (Pablo, December 1966, his final studio recording). I remember it quite depressive, hardly making it in the slow tempos. I think I´ll give it a spin tonight.

I don´t have "Supreme" (Enja, September 1966).

I´ve heard he did a good appearance with JATP in 1969. Was it recorded?

[Eloe Omoe]

I´ve heard he did a good appearance with JATP in 1969. Was it recorded?

JAZZ AT THE PHILHARMONIC

London, 1969

Pablo 2PACD-2620-119-2 (2-CD set)

Disc 1: Ow (Jam), Stardust, Yesterdays, You Go to My Head, Tin Tin Deo, The Champ, Woman You Must Be Crazy, Goin' to Chicago, Stormy Monday

Disc 2: Shiny Stockings, Undecided, I've Got the World on a String/ L.O.V.E., Blue Lou, I Can't Get Started, September Song, Body and Soul, Bean Stalkin', What Is This Thing Called Love?

with Clark Terry, James Moody, Zoot Sims, T-Bone Walker, Benny Carter, Dizzy Gillespie, Coleman Hawkins

Luca

[EKE BBB]

Thanks!

Have you heard it? How did he play, a few months before his death?

[LAL]

Hawk's playing was good, obviously not matching up to his peak, but his health condition didn't affect his playing.

[Chuck Nessa]

I sold the lp and will not buy a cd. I think this is a black mark on Norman's reputation.

[Swinging Swede]

It has been established that the 'JATP 1969' set actually is from 1966.

[EKE BBB]

It has been established that the 'JATP 1969' set actually is from 1966.

So, there isn´t any recorded evidence of Hawkins playing live after 1966?

[mmilovan]

Don't really know anything about 1969 (1966?) JATP date, but signs of lacking control can be heard in Hawk's interpretation of bossa nova (around 1962-63, right). Here, Hawk sounds absent and somewhat fragile. Anyway, I like that session.

But it is not what people can expect from Hawk. Hawk's depression is really hard one - different from depression Lester suffered from. It is interesting to hear someone who was always in top shape playing modest, audibly low leveled phrases.

And that problem what king ubu emphasized - it is the same with me. Too much notes I can not always listen to (in any given part of the day or night).

The same problem I have with Trane.

Probably I'm not tuned to strong messages these giants delivered every second they played.

Edited April 1, 2004 by mmilovan

[jazzbo]

Agustin, if you're looking for the European recordings, there was a six cd set out on Affinity that was for a while being sold pretty darned cheaply that featured Bean from the beginning up through the European years, and had great sound and was full of excellent music. . . worth looking for.

[medjuck]

I have that but I was disappointed to see that despite being called " Coleman Hawkins: The Complete Recordings 1929-1941" it's missing all of his work with Fletcher Henderson from those years. There may be some explaanatin but since the box comes with no notes I don't know what it is. I've been putting together my own discography for this set but I've still got a few holes. Anyone know who played on the 1930 Jack Purvis date ("Dismal Dan", Poor Richard" and "Down Georgia Way") or "I'm in the Mood for Love" from 1936?

[Swinging Swede]

It has been established that the 'JATP 1969' set actually is from 1966.

So, there isn´t any recorded evidence of Hawkins playing live after 1966?

Yes, there is - both live and studio! This very subject came up at the BNBB a few years ago when a member had thought that Sirius was Hawkins's last recording, so I'll simply copy and paste my old post below:

Re post-Sirius Hawkins recordings

Although Sirius from December 1966 was Hawkins’s last American studio album, it was by no means the last time he was recorded.

In June/July 1967 there were a couple of JATP concerts in Los Angeles, from which material was released on a Pablo 3-CD set titled The Greatest Jazz Concert In The World (how’s that for a title?). Hawkins is backed by the Oscar Peterson Trio on two numbers, and also participates in a jam session.

In October 1967 Hawkins recorded live in Copenhagen, backed by the Oscar Peterson Trio. Five tracks (including the version of Stuffy mentioned above) were released on a Moon CD, which also had a set by Don Byas backed by the Teddy Wilson Trio from the same year. This Moon CD actually has pretty decent sound. The title of it is Coleman Hawkins Vs. Oscar Peterson & Don Byas Vs. Teddy Wilson.

In February 1968 Hawkins was once again in Copenhagen and recorded two tracks in a Danish Radio studio with the Kenny Drew Trio. I have these on a Storyville CD, titled Masters Of Jazz, Vol. 12, which seems to be still in print (it’s listed at CDNow for example). This CD also has the Essen tracks from 1960, and a stray track from 1954, that first was released on a compilation.

The same two tracks plus four more tracks from Copenhagen 1968, where Hawk fronts a group that includes organist Lou Bennett (one of the very few times Hawk recorded with an organ) have, according to Tom Lord, been out on a CD on the Italian Tempo di Jazz label. I’ve never seen this or any other Tempo di Jazz CD. These would be the last released Hawkins recordings, but since he continued to perform until shortly before his death in May 1969, who knows what tapes may lie around somewhere?

There is also a Pablo 2-CD set titled J.A.T.P. In London 1969 that purports to have Hawk in surprisingly good form just two months before his death. It has however been established that this concert is from 1966, and thus predates Sirius. Another example of Fantasy not doing the necessary research before putting out Granz tapes.

[Swinging Swede]

I should also add that Hawkins is in much stronger form on the 1968 tracks than on Sirius, so it wasn't a straight decline.