Record shopping: different cities’ musical tastes

[Rabshakeh]

I'm currently in Minneapolis, keeping myself amused by going record shopping and then wandering around the areas afterwards (fail-safe technique: areas of cities with record shops are always the best for strolling around). 

I'm always interested in how different the second hand record stock is in different cities, even within the same country or region.  Generally, I think that what is widely available in a second hand shop essentially represents what was popular in the area 10-30 years ago, or so. 

In contrast to my home base of London, Minneapolis second hand racks are noticeably full of the lighter end of 1970s fusion (Spyrogyra) and CTI stuff (which are a lot cheaper than London, maybe because of the lack of a Giles Peterson effect). Phil Woods and Richie Cole were obviously huge here at one time, because they have huge sections. There's almost no cool jazz; barely anything on Prestige or the 70s bop labels, which show up all the time in London; and next to nothing avantgarde (jazzwise; lots of avantgarde rock and punk for some reason). 

My last trip to a major city was to Chicago pre-pandemic. Despite being in the same country, and close to Minneapolis, in geographic terms, it was a different world. Gene Ammons was everywhere on the second hand racks, and there was a lot of the more avant garde stuff. That's pretty understandable, given that Chicago is home to both. Soul and blues sections were both large and quite Chicago-specific.

I'd be interested in other people's thoughts about record shopping and the differences in cities’ music tastes, and what other members have observed.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Rabshakeh

[HutchFan]

My wife and I are in Toronto for a few weeks.  Compared to Atlanta, the biggest thing that I've noticed is the huge preponderance of NEW records being sold.  (I don't mean new in in the sense that the music is contemporary.  Many -- maybe even most -- are reissues.  I just mean the stock is still sealed from the factory.)

I've only been to four or five shops, so far -- and there are MANY record stores in Toronto -- so this observation may just be a reflection of the shops I've visited.  But the first thing that I noticed is that the vast majority of the jazz records in the bins -- maybe 85% -- are new.  In Atlanta, I'd estimate that it's the exact opposite: 85% are used and 15% are new.

Even my wife noticed it.  In one shop, she pointed to the Miles Davis section, where there was at least a DOZEN new, sealed versions of Bitches Brew.  In a comparable shop in Atlanta, there might be one or two.

The abundance of new albums and the lack of used stock points to the fact that there's much more of an market for jazz in Toronto compared to Atlanta.  And that doesn't surprise me at all.  Atlanta has never been a "jazz city." 

 

[Dub Modal]

Trap, R&B and country probably own the ATL market. There’s a ton of local artists and labels there that just seem to dominate airwaves and publicity channels. 

[HutchFan]

Yep.  It's a Rap and R&B town.

And some Country too -- but I think Atlanta's scene is still relatively small compared to Nashville.

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by HutchFan

[Bill Nelson]

As a frequent seller at Atlanta record shows, trying to move country LPs was the kiss of death.  The only interest was for hot guitar pickers and buyers might offer $5-10 for a good one.  Black music -- jazz, soul, funk -- would always sell. 

[Dub Modal]

Quick addendum: I have doubts that many country music fans actually buy physical product. It seems to be radio or streaming for that crowd but that’s all anecdotal on my part.

 

[HutchFan]

12 minutes ago, Bill Nelson said:

As a frequent seller at Atlanta record shows, trying to move country LPs was the kiss of death.  The only interest was for hot guitar pickers and buyers might offer $5-10 for a good one.  Black music -- jazz, soul, funk -- would always sell. 

Interesting observations, Bill.  

As a seller, you're in a better position than me to judge how much appetite there is for any genre.

 

[Rabshakeh]

What about differences in jazz buying habits? I think they're just as noticeable as the wider differences between genre.

[sidewinder]

Never been record shopping in Minneapolis/St Paul as the one time I called in was on a flight change to Cedar Rapids, Iowa (about -30C at the time, damn cold) If it is like much of the mid-West it is possibly a bit low key on the jazz vinyl side, although places like St Louis do have Euclid. That would go for that region on both the US and Canadian side, based on my experience (admittedly years ago though now).

My experience of Toronto was that it was great for new CDs but that second hand vinyl stores were a bit elusive (there was a place called the ‘Vinyl Museum’ on Lakeshore that I used to pop in to). Again, that was many years ago now and I wasn’t exactly seeking out jazz vinyl.

Edited June 13, 2022 by sidewinder

[kh1958]

My impression is that, in terms of 50s/60s jazz LP pressings, the major label releases are much more common  in Texas than the independent East Coast Jazz labels. My suspicion is that Blue Note, Riverside and Prestige were not well distributed in Texas during that era. The West Coast/cool jazz releases (Pacific Jazz/Contemporary) were perhaps more popular or better distributed in Texas during that era. The Chicago label Argo is ubiquitous, but limited to Ahmad Jamal and Ramsey Lewis.

[HutchFan]

4 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

What about differences in jazz buying habits? I think they're just as noticeable as the wider differences between genre.

I don't think I've seen enough of Toronto's shops to generalize about jazz sub-genres ... yet.  

I have seen what you describe in Chicago, Rab.  First of all, there's so much available there, but also -- as you noted -- the impact of the music that was or is being made in the city itself is very evident. 

Jazz sub-genre-wise, it's hard for generalize about Atlanta.  Maybe because I see it all the time, it just strikes me as a mix of styles across the spectrum -- although I have sometimes wondered if my interest in 70s jazz was partially due to the fact that so much of it was (formerly) readily available in Atlanta at relatively LOW prices, compared to music from, say, the 1950s or 60s.  However, it does seem like interest in 70s jazz has grown dramatically over the last decade.  So, what was formerly bargain-basement priced might not be nearly so inexpensive anymore -- particularly when it comes to vinyl.  OTOH, CDs are cheaper than ever now -- although shops seem to be stocking fewer and fewer.  One ATL-record store owner that I know says that it's barely worth his time to sell them.

 

[JSngry]

15 minutes ago, kh1958 said:

My impression is that, in terms of 50s/60s jazz LP pressings, the major label releases are much more common  in Texas than the independent East Coast Jazz labels. My suspicion is that Blue Note, Riverside and Prestige were not well distributed in Texas during that era. The West Coast/cool jazz releases (Pacific Jazz/Contemporary) were perhaps more popular or better distributed in Texas during that era. The Chicago label Argo is ubiquitous, but limited to Ahmad Jamal and Ramsey Lewis.

I started shopping the Dallas-area stores in 1974 or so, when there were a LOT of local mom & pop type stores still open, with a lot of gloriously untouched stock from the past. The only place I found OG Blue Notes with any quantity was in African-American neighborhoods. Riverside, never, not even Cannonball or Bill Evans. Prestige, not a lot, really. Argo, more than Lewis & Jamal, but no real pattern to it. Pacific Jazz....maybe. That on was weird. I did find both Booker Ervin PJ records, though, albeit in different stores in different neighborhoods.

Looking at the histories of these labels...at some point, Prestige began getting bigtime distribution around here. All the Sound Warehouses had plenty Prestige stock, and given the nature of distribution stock, most were green label, but not always. It was like buying baseball cards, every so often, you'd open up the pack and be delighted. Riverside, remember, had folded up in the early-ish 60s, and other than a brief reissue stint by ABC(!), nothing until the Milestone 2-fers, and then the Japanese facsimile stuff.

Blue Note, once the massive catalog deletions of the late 60s (and this is true of Pacific Jazz as well, even more so, it was all Liberty by then), the catalogue got culled and then stabilized and you could get those blue-label pressings of standard catalog items fairly easily. Pacific Jazz, though, that stff just got dropped. Cutout bins were your friend then, for both labels.

What was different then is that there really weren't a lot of chains then, but there were, like I said, a lot of neighborhood shops, and they staocked what their neighborhood customers were likely to buy. There was one memorable south Dallas store that some of us "discovered" that had, like, beaucoup BNs and NO Beatles, not one. Nor Elvis, nor anything related to White music in general. That kind of targeting a neighborhood doesn't really exist anymore, just like neighborhood stores in general don't really exist any more.

And for as ;long as they were around, you would find significantly different inventory at a South Dallas Sound Warehouse than you would a North Dallas one. I think buyers had the liberty to stock according to the expected tastes of the area. I learned early on to go everywhere when shopping, not just for the small shops, but for the chains as well.

In this area anyway, what I get a sense of in the used stores are mostly people dumping their (or their "inherited:) records at HPB, and then the stock gets distributed around stores a little bit (or more). And let's face it - most people have the taste of "the masses", because they ARE "the masses". But every so often, you'll find something with something on it that tells you about who the original owner was, and that's always interesting.

The other big used store around here that I've had a few trips to is Josey Records, and I do not know where their seed stock came from (maybe some of it frm Bill's?). Their first year, I was able to buy more small label 20th Century Classical that any place since, maybe, the old Melody Shop in North Park in the 1970s. The last few times I've been in there, though, it's not been particularly interesting, and for damn sure not revelatory.

Oh, Verve...wtf? Those Granz-era things were sold here, I know this. But it's like when MGM took over, most of them vanished. And the MGM stuff must have gotten culled a lot as well, because other than Bill Evans, Stan Getz, and Wes Montogomery...not too much.

[kh1958]

I find Verves to be reasonably common in the area.

Bill's was the vilest record store of all time. Josey does have some of their inventory but is selling it separately. Their stock does not come from Bill's. When they opened they were much better stocked, from large collections the owners had bought. Now they have slowed down and seem to re-stock from buying from individuals, but they still get a reasonable amount good stuff (e.g., Buddy Tate's Tate a Tate on Prestige purchased last weekend for $15).. 

[Rabshakeh]

30 minutes ago, kh1958 said:

Bill's was the vilest record store of all time. 

This made me laugh.

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

There was one memorable south Dallas store that some of us "discovered" that had, like, beaucoup BNs and NO Beatles, not one. Nor Elvis, nor anything related to White music in general. That kind of targeting a neighborhood doesn't really exist anymore, just like neighborhood stores in general don't really exist any more.

Still quite common in London. I know quite a few places that do reggae and jazz pretty much exclusively (e.g. Honest Jon's).

2 hours ago, sidewinder said:

My experience of Toronto was that it was great for new CDs but that second hand vinyl stores were a bit elusive (there was a place called the ‘Vinyl Museum’ on Lakeshore that I used to pop in to). Again, that was many years ago now and I wasn’t exactly seeking out jazz vinyl.

Cosmos Records? They have a spin off in London called Yoyo that has interesting stuff, albeit at a sometimes silly premium.

Another place that does jazz, hip hop and Brazilian music only and almost no rock.

All of this I think represents the kind of music London DJs used to play. Lots of dubbier stuff and 'rare groove' type jazz. Less rock. It's quite a contrast when you travel and see how different things get.

[sidewinder]

12 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

 They have a spin off in London called Yoyo that has interesting stuff, albeit at a sometimes silly premium.

Their site is an eye-opener. Ludicrous pricing, even for very ordinary stuff.

[HutchFan]

13 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Cosmos Records? They have a spin off in London called Yoyo that has interesting stuff, albeit at a sometimes silly premium.

I was in Cosmos and Cosmos West on Saturday. You ain't lying when you say they are PRICEY. But their stock is gorgeous and interesting.  Lots of imports and rarities.  I bought two relatively inexpensive (used) LPs, and it set me back about $50 USD.

 

[JSngry]

29 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

This made me laugh.

Oh, but he wasn't being funny, he's telling the truth.

30 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Still quite common in London. I know quite a few places that do reggae and jazz pretty much exclusively (e.g. Honest Jon's).

Are these neighborhood-specific driven, or musical niche driven?

[Rabshakeh]

26 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Are these neighborhood-specific driven, or musical niche driven?

Neither, really. I think it just reflects the London scene through time. Vinyl is closely tied in with DJ culture.

[sidewinder]

Honest Jon’s always seemed to specialise in jazz and reggae. Even back in the 70s/80s and across various London area sites. Probably reflects the interests of the founders/owners.

41 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

I was in Cosmos and Cosmos West on Saturday. You ain't lying when you say they are PRICEY. But their stock is gorgeous and interesting.  Lots of imports and rarities.  I bought two relatively inexpensive (used) LPs, and it set me back about $50 USD.

 

I wasn’t even aware of these guys and checking their site they seem to have an ‘East’ and ‘West’ store. Aha, thinks I, the ‘East’ must be sited East of Yonge St to serve that region but no, they are both on Queen St West. WTF !

[clifford_thornton]

I would love to have visited the original Rough Trade shop... punk/post-punk and reggae and not much else.

[mjazzg]

59 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Oh, but he wasn't being funny, he's telling the truth.

Are these neighborhood-specific driven, or musical niche driven?

I think they do have locale influence, Reggae retailers in Brixton and Portobello very probably reflect the community at time of their establishment. I don't think it's a coincidence that Honest Jon's has focussed on Reggae, Jazz and music from around the world.

I think the DJ culture's importance in London is reflected that shops focussing on all genres of dance music are spread throughout the city.

7 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

I would love to have visited the original Rough Trade shop... punk/post-punk and reggae and not much else.

Established in the same area as the original Honest Jon's shop probably reflecting the area's cheaper rates and 'alternative' history, now almost completely overwhelmed by gentrification. No squats now for the next Clash.

It was a fantastically ramshackle shop.

[HutchFan]

1 hour ago, sidewinder said:

I wasn’t even aware of these guys and checking their site they seem to have an ‘East’ and ‘West’ store. Aha, thinks I, the ‘East’ must be sited East of Yonge St to serve that region but no, they are both on Queen St West. WTF !

Yeah, 99.9% of the jazz is in the West location, which is a couple blocks from the original store on Queen St.

I think adding another shop down the street was the easiest way for them to expand their store's square-footage.  (The original shop is very small.  And West is only a touch bigger.)

 

[sidewinder]

1 hour ago, clifford_thornton said:

I would love to have visited the original Rough Trade shop... punk/post-punk and reggae and not much else.

I think I did call in once - they had no jazz so I was in and out in less than a minute !

[Teasing the Korean]

It has at least as much to do with distribution as it does taste.  For example, you can't find Korla Pandit LPs on the East Coast.  On the West Coast, they are everywhere. 

[Pim]

I was in Berlin last week and spent a full afternoon visiting record stores. I attended 11 shops and walked 21 kilometers. Ended up with only one record: Nathan Davis’ Rules of Freedom which appeared to be a bootleg after all (why the hell would a record store sell illegal stuff?) glad I have a cd version too

Pretty big disappointment. I had pretty high expectations with the enourmius amount of stores. Biggest disappointment was the much praised ‘Space Hall’ which wasn’t big at all, dark, silent and a lousy and small section of jazz records. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Pim