Jazz guitar (what to listen for)?

[wesbed]

I don't own many jazz guitar titles. However, I do enjoy jazz guitar very much. I enjoy the soft, yet swinging, and sometimes stretched/distorted sound. Most all of the jazz guitar titles I own are by Grant Green. I recently purchased Milt Jackson's 'Bag meets Wes!' This purchase got me to thinking, what makes a jazz guitar player different from other jazz guitar players? What makes the given player unique? What should I be listening for?

My ear is more tuned to trumpet, saxophone, and piano. To me, there is a quite a difference between Freddie Hubbard's quick/high notes and Kenny Dorham's softer sound. It's obvious, when you hear Wayne Shorter's liquid sax, that it's different than Hank Mobley's buttered sax. Finally, Bill Evans' sophisticated piano is nothing like Monk's quirky, throw-back, old-fashioned/new-fangled piano.

What about jazz guitar? To my ears, each player sounds different. But, how & why? To me, Grant Green plays more 'single notes.' Yes, I've read that his sound is modeled after Sonny Rollins' saxophone technique. Wes Montomery is different from Grant Green. What makes Montgomery different? Does he play more chords and fewer single notes? Finally, Kenny Burrell. What's Burrell's gig? What makes his sound unique from the others?

What should I be listening for in each guitar player's style? What does one player do different from the other? What is each player known for? What makes him stand out from the crowd? What unique thing would let me determine if it's Grant Green, Wes Montgomery, or Kenny Burrell playing on a given track?

Edited May 2, 2004 by wesbed

[Uncle Skid]

I'm looking forward to the more knowledgeable board members weighing in on this, but in the mean time...

I can always tell Wes Montgomery by his use of octaves. Essentially, this technique is simply doubling a melody line with the octave above or below it -- check out "D-Natural Blues" or "Polka & Moonbeams" on "Incredible Jazz Guitar" for great examples of this.

In fact, this technique is so heavily associated with Wes that most guitarists can't use it extensively without being immediately compared to him.

Edited to add: also check out the intro on "Blue Roz" on "Bags Meets Wes".

Edited April 29, 2004 by Uncle Skid

[Tom Storer]

I'm not sure what you're asking for (not that I could tell you anyway). Do you want a list of personal characteristics for all known jazz guitarists? Or do you just want the "right" vocabulary to talk about guitar sound?

[DrJ]

Ditto Tom's question.

In the absence of that, listen to see if you can tell what's going on with some of the following things:

- Pick attack and approach (or do they play sans pick?), because use of a pick or not and then the style of picking they use has a huge influence on sound. I saw a recent Sonny Greenwich solo transcription that pointed out something I hadn't thought about that influences his sound, which is that he uses a lot of "up-picking." Wes Montgomery of course is a classic example of someone who didn't use a pick and had that unconventional thumb style that led to a very beefy sound.

- String gauge - some people use telephone cables they're so thick, others lighter gauge, and some mix and match. This definitely can influence the sound.

- Axe and amp choice. This is not to say that "Guitar X always sounds like this" or "This amp is always warm" but simply that these things tend to really impact on sound and there are generalizations. Big hollowbodies are going to generally sound very warm, semisolid or solid bodies a little "harder edged" but don't feed back as much. Then there's the whole issue of how the amp is actually deployed - with someone like Joe Pass on the VIRTUOSO album it's almost like he's playing acoustically the amp is so quiet, just there enough to project and thicken the sound a bit.

- Use of effects - these can be subtle, like Jim Hall's more recent work, or more obvious, e.g. Bill Frisell. Do they like a disorted or overdriven edge; a little chorus or delay?

There's more I'm sure. These are more of the technical aspects of a guitarist's sound...but of course the more musical aspects are of greater importance. Do they tend to use more single notes than chords? Are the lines "horn like" (e.g. not just single notes, but incorporating the phrasing and other elements - e.g. pauses for "breaths" - horn players employ? Octaves? What about the harmonies themselves - are they working at the outer reaches of the harmony a la Eric Dolphy, more mainstream? What do they do with rhythm - cross bar lines, or pretty much work within the bars?

It's easier for guitar players than horn players to play very long, fast lines because they don't have to breathe, but other than for effect occasionally this can also sound very wearisome, "running scales" and that may be what you're reacting to wesbed in terms of your ear being more attuned to sax, trumpet, etc. The best guitarists, in my view, realize this and mix it up more, giving the lines room to breathe and sink in.

Lots more others will add I'm sure. But these are things it may be good to listen for and think about. If you do I think some of the "what makes that sound so unique" questions will begin to have their answers revealed.

Where's Jim R when we need him!?

Edited April 29, 2004 by DrJ

[wesbed]

I'm not sure what you're asking for (not that I could tell you anyway). Do you want a list of personal characteristics for all known jazz guitarists? Or do you just want the "right" vocabulary to talk about guitar sound?

I believe that listing the personal characteristics of all known jazz guitarists could be a bit daunting. Which is why I chose the three listed jazz guitarists.

What I'm looking for is a unique personal characteristic to listen for per each listed guitar player. For example, Red Garland had the very light touch on the piano. Philly Joe Jones had a 'popping' sound to his drum set. Coltrane had the 'sheets of sound.' Paul Desmond played the 'dry martini' saxophone. Lee Morgan played, if I remember correctly, a 'half valve' style on the trumpet.

What are some of same kind of examples/characteristics when speaking of jazz guitar?

[Joe G]

Dr J: I can't think of much to add to that! Except, perhaps, for the emotional aspect of the music, which is the same in guitarists as it is with other players. Serious, playful, searching, wistful, introverted, aggressive, and so on. You can listen for the intent behind the music, and recognize something unique about each guitarist that way.

[Joe G]

For the three players mentioned (Burrell, Montgomery, and Green), the two giveaways for me are the signature licks, and the tone/articulation. I've read that Kenny uses a picking technique known as "circular picking", where the pick actually moves side to side in addition to up and down, which sorta makes a circle. It gives his phrases a loping sort of quality. As Dr J mentioned, Wes used his thumb in place of a pick, which gives his sound a warmer, softer quality. And of course, the octave and chord solos give him away. Grant often has a more staccato way of playing the notes, and has a lot of forward momentum in his solos. He was also fond of repeating a two or three note phrase sometimes for an entire chorus, creating rhythmic tension.

[wesbed]

Joe G:

Thanks for the insights, in addition to what DrJ posted. I appreciate, understand, and can hear the circular sound of Kenny Burrell. The 'thumb in place of a pick' technique of Wes Montgomery. And, especially the staccato picking of Grant Green. I know what you mean, when Grant get's 'stuck' at certain moments, creates some tension, then just goes nuts and tears it up. He blows me away every time.

[Sundog]

A couple other points...

Re: Kenny Burrell, by listening to Kenny in a trio setting you really get a sense how he approaches his instrument. The way he "comps" around the melody is very telling and readily apparent. Essentially, he's creating extremely inventive, in the pocket, chord melody arrangements. These types of recordings also really showcase his arranging skills, which I believe are a bit underrated. Check out 12-15-78, Live At The Village Vanguard for plenty of examples of his prowess in a trio setting.

The other thing about Kenny is that he is one of the "baddest" when it comes playing the blues. The obvious choice of albums that illustrates this point is Midnight Blue . The whole ablum is great, however, let me just say that if your looking for KB. blues cliches Citlins Con Carne and Mule are great songs to study.

A few other random points about Kenny in no particular order...

1) Check out the way he interacts with Shirley Scott on Stanley Turrentine's album Hustlin'. It's all about creating that good groove. I believe Trouble No.2 illustrates the point that I'm trying to make better than anything. Check it out!

2) Kenny has a "knack" for creating beautiful tag intros and endings. Two of my favorite are the intros. to Merry Christmas Baby off the album Have Yourself A Soulful Little Christmas and the intro. to Since I Fell For You off the Round Midnight album. Very nice indeed!

3) Kenny can play Ellington! He seems to have a deep connection with the maestro's music. That's "F"ing cool in my book. Lot's of examples that illustrate this point. When Kenny plays Duke it's pretty much essential listening. Check out In A Mellow Tone from the album Laid Back. A favorite of mine at the moment. Lot's of bluesy turns!

4) Kenny is one generous player who above else serves the song. Listen for what he doesn't play! That's an education.

5) Kenny's got that feel. His sound and feel are so widely copied that it seems to be hardwired into every guitar player that came after him. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that he swings like a "Mother".

Hope this helps.

[Chuck Nessa]

If you are REALLY checking out jazz guitar, don't ignore Tal Farlow and Jimmy Raney.

[7/4]

If you are REALLY checking out jazz guitar, don't ignore Tal Farlow and Jimmy Raney.

Oh yes! Those guys are amazing. Was the Red Norvo trio with Mingus ever released on CD?

[wesbed]

If you are REALLY checking out jazz guitar, don't ignore Tal Farlow and Jimmy Raney.

I know there is a Tal Farlow Mosaic on its way. To add to this discussion, what makes Tal Farlow unique?

Edited April 29, 2004 by wesbed

[7/4]

If you are REALLY checking out jazz guitar, don't ignore Tal Farlow and Jimmy Raney.

I know there is a Tal Farlow Mosaic Select on its way. To add to this discussion, what makes Tal Farlow unique?

Cool.

He had friggin' huge hands, so he could play different chords no on else could reach.

As fer Jimmy Rainey, he was like Bach fused with Parker.

I really need to get a turntable! There was one disk of Rainey with a string qt. Too cool.

[Chuck Nessa]

It does not make him unique, but Tal had a great techinque and very interesting ideas of how to use it. The trios/quartets with Eddie Costa are wonderful but don't limit your listening to them. He's a MF!

[.:.impossible]

For one thing, he tends to bend notes more than the others did. I think his uniqueness, though, isn't his technique, so much as his musicianship. Like the others listed here, he is unique as a musician. This would have shown if he grew up with a saxophone in his hands, I'd think.

Another "trick" of Tal's is the harmonic playing he does. Listen to 1969 THE RETURN OF TAL FARLOW for some serious showcasing.

[Sundog]

If you are REALLY checking out jazz guitar, don't ignore Tal Farlow and Jimmy Raney.

Chuck knows of what he speaks. A whole different discussion though. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on KB. I gather your not his biggest fan? That's certainly cool. Would appreciate your perspective on his playing. Of course, I'll understand if you decline. As the saying goes, if you have nothing good to say...

[Chuck Nessa]

Would appreciate your perspective on his playing. Of course, I'll understand if you decline. As the saying goes, if you have nothing good to say...

Kenny is a fine musician but (at his best) fills holes in performances without destroying them.

I have nothing negative to add and nothing positive other than that. My "not being a negative" is much bigger praise than most of you will reaslise.

[Sundog]

Thank you.

[J.A.W.]

If you are REALLY checking out jazz guitar, don't ignore Tal Farlow and Jimmy Raney.

Oh yes! Those guys are amazing. Was the Red Norvo trio with Mingus ever released on CD?

Yes, in truncated form, on one Savoy CD; they cut a few tracks that were on the Savoy 2LP-set.

[Jim R]

Where's Jim R when we need him!?

Checking in late... and thanks Tony, but I don't think you "needed" me! B) Great posts- and so thorough... I'm glad you all got here before me.

I'll add a couple of thoughts (and forgive me if I repeat anybody). First of all, in terms of recognizing Wes, KB, and Grant, I think it has more to do with their musical soul (or personal voice, or whatever you want to call it) than with their guitars or even their techniques. Those other things are important too, but it's the musical concept(s) that they employ that are most responsible for their recognizability (don't worry, I consulted a dictionary ), IMO. That's probably true of all great jazz artists. Wes' chord choices, Grant's relentless bluesy soul, and Burrell's hard-swinging lyricism... the "velvet whip", as Russell Malone once described it.

In terms of equipment, it was mentioned that certain guitars/amps generally produce a certain sound (but that it's only part of the equation). This is so true. Two L-5's equipped with humbuckers, played through the same Fender Twin, will sound quite a bit different in the hands of two different players- especially if they have developed their attack, touch, and personal tonal concepts. At any rate, there is still that underlying character that a certain choice of guitar/amp can produce. During Grant's classic Blue Note era, he was using a Gibson ES-330, which was a model not widely used by jazz players. It's thin, hollow body and single coil pickups contributed to Grant's distinctive sound. This reminds me- Wes and KB also used guitars with single coil pickups in their early years, but went on to use humbuckers. One of my favorite things about following Burrell's career is to marvel at all the great sounds (tones) he created over the years. He always sounds great- in fact I'm sure he would sound wonderful with the proverbial homemade cigar box guitar- but he definitely produced different tones at different phases of his career.

Since I'm conversing with other guitar players here, I'd love to hear your thoughts about favorite Burrell recordings in terms of his sound. In the early years, he was using a Gibson ES-175 with (single coil) P-90's. A great, biting sound which could be compared somwhat with Grant's 330 sound. Later on, in the early 60's, Kenny started using "Charlie Christian" pickups (see my avatar), first on a 175 and later on an L-5. Check out his sound on "Moten Swing" (the Columbia recordings formerly issued as "Bluesin' Around"). There are three different sessions on there, and on some of the tracks he's using the CC pickup, with heavenly results. "People Will Say We're In Love" is one of the tracks where I just sigh and try not to think about how much I struggle to get a sound like that. Burrell was somehow separated from that L-5 (it was either lost or stolen), and soon after that he acquired his 1956 D'Angelico New Yorker (with a Dearmond 1100 floating pickup). A slightly different sound than he was getting before, but equally as heavenly. This is the guitar he uses on the aforementioned Christmas LP, and he also used it on "Night Song" (Verve), among others. In Burrell's hands, that 18" work of art produced by the American "Stradivarius" of archtop guitar luthiery brought forth a sound that to me is to have fallen down and died. Unfortunately, those guitars are now selling for astronomical prices (Burrell's D'A was sold for approximately $75,000 some years ago), and even those 1100's are almost impossible to get one's hands on anymore.

Sorry, I guess I get carried away on this topic. Anyway, for me, with Wes it's always been less about his tone for some reason. I actually used to dislike his tone... a bit too brittle and distorted at times (I think Tony and I discussed this a long time ago... I'm getting a Deja Vu). He made up for it (IMO) by being the greatest jazz guitarist who ever lived. B) People like to talk about the octaves, and with good reason. To me, however, the most astonishing signature technique that Wes employed was his chordal solos (or solos in chords, not to be confused with chord/melody soloing). Unbelieveable, to this day.

[Jim R]

Wow, this topic really took off in the time it took me to compose that last post.

Tal Farlow ("the octopus"). 1. His phrases were longer than the average bear- er, I mean, guitar player. If a saxophonist tried to play some of Tal's lines, they would have turned blue and feinted. 2. He was known for his incredible skill at playing solos in harmonics (lightly touching a string one octave above where it is fretted, producing a light bell-like sound). Other players have done it, but Tal did it with great style. BTW, somebody mentioned Tal bending notes more than other guitarists. I must disagree. Oscar Moore, Barney Kessel come immediately to mind...

Jimmy Raney. A great bebop musician who just happened to play the guitar. What else can you say... he wasn't about guitaristics, tricks, etc. Just a great musical mind and a pure, direct tone. He was a big influence on Grant Green, BTW.

Edited April 30, 2004 by Jim R

[.:.impossible]

Most of the jazz bebop guitarists I've heard don't bend notes. Tal bends notes moreso than the guitarists this thread focuses on. Kessel relies on bending notes more than Tal, but Tal did bend notes. He played HUGE chords and his lines were restless.

[Jim R]

Most of the jazz bebop guitarists I've heard don't bend notes. Tal bends notes moreso than the guitarists this thread focuses on.

Absolutely right. I misunderstood you- sorry.

[king ubu]

Chiming in late. What about Jimmy Gourley?

I have several fifties recordings from France with him playing. Seems he was sort of the Raney-style-ambassador for some very fine players in Europe, back then.

The one album I have of him is a very nice one, quartet setting with Barney Wilen, no piano:

Among said young french guitar players, René Thomas (belgian, I think, actually) stands out. There are two CDs of his in the recent Jazz in Paris series:

And then there's this one with J.R. Monterose, a great album, in my opinion:

Another fine guitar player was Sacha Distel. As a bonus release to the Jazz in Paris series, "Jazz guitarist", a very good 2CD set, has been released last year:

My favorite Distel, however, is on this album, co-led with John Lewis, and featuring Barney Wilen in top form:

(Reissued by Koch, OOP now, as far as I know).

ubu

[Clunky]

what about Sal Salvador, what i've heard seems quite close to the Raney school not as fluent as Farlow (but then who is). His session with Costa (on the 10" BN reissue) on board makes a nice comparison with Farlow's. Recently picked up Sal's "Juicy Lucy" on Beehive, a pleasant enough set with Billy Taylor

Rene Thomas seems pretty hot on Getz'z Dynasty album. Worth a spin or two.