[bebopbob]

I just replaced my old single disc "Columbia Jazz Legacy" CD copy of Ellington at Newport" released in the late 1980s with the expanded 2 CD set issued a few years back.

I noticed as I was listening to the first disc that there is a sudden abrupt break in the applause following Diminuendo and Crescendo in Blue (track 19) and Duke announcing Paul Gonsalves as the featured soloist in Diminuendo on track 20 that sounds like a 10-12 second blank spot on the disc. Is this a defective disc I bought or does this blank space appear on other copies as well. Thanks.

[medjuck]

If you mean at the end of the disc (ie after the anouncements) it's actually track 21: something Phil Schaap called a pause track. It should be listed on your cd and in the notes. Schaap had this idea that we would want a pause track for programming our cds. He also seemed to think that we all knew how to use indexes on our players. He was so worried about stuff like that that he left out the actual take of Up and Down from Such Sweet Thunder that everyone talks about in the notes.

[neveronfriday]

Yep, this release is Schaaped.

[Christiern]

There is good reason why Schaap is no longer allowed to apply his twisted approach to reissues. His idiocy--much of which has its basis in ongoing efforts to assert his self-imagined authority image--is also reflected in his liner notes to this and other albums. BTW, I have seen some of his notes before they were translated into readable English--you would not believe...

He also fancied himself as being an audio engineer, which is another good reason to celebrate his relative obscurity. There were reissues where he seemed to reintroduce surface noise! :tdown :tdown :tdown

[EKE BBB]

Christiern, on Jan 12 2005, 02:49 PM, said:

He also fancied himself as being an audio engineer, which is another good reason to celebrate his relative obscurity. There were reissues where he seemed to reintroduce surface noise! :tdown :tdown :tdown

Maybe http://www.organissi...ic=4172&hl=1938 ???

:w :w :w

[neveronfriday]

Hm.

All arguments not withstanding, that Benny Goodman Carnegie release is still the best available (on CD). By far! I love that one. So I don't really care about the rest. But if all of what's been written about Schaap is true, I'm sure as hell going to be more careful whenever I come across any of his "works".

Cheers!

[Tom in RI]

Do you think Schaap is the collector who has the extra 6 minutes of Bird and Diz mentioned in the thread on the upcoming Town Hall Bird and Diz concert on Uptown?

[Big Al]

Has Schaap done any reissues since his Ellington debacles, of which Newport is a part? His full-time radio gig is bad enough as it is!

And I don't know about the rest of y'all, but does it bug the living hell out of anyone else the way the disc switches back and forth from stereo to mono, sometimes within the course of the same damn song? Especially on "Diminuendo & Crescendo!!!" Yet another Schaap travesty. What, consistent mono is a bad thing?

Idiot!!!! :angry: :angry: :angry:

[Claude]

deus62, on Jan 12 2005, 04:26 PM, said:

All arguments not withstanding, that Benny Goodman Carnegie release is still the best available (on CD). By far!

Have you heard the Definitive release? This is *said* to be the best version of the Carnegie Hall concert. Less noisier than the Schaap (extreme in this regard, even my 80 year old neighbour complained about the scratching sounds :)) and much clearer than the noisereduced earlier CBS CD reissue.

As far as the Ellington disc is concerned, it's great to hear this concert in the complete and unedited running order. But the idea to create a stereo sound from two independent mono recordings (Columbia and broadcast tapes) is absolute nonsense in my view. Although the CD doesn't sound bad, the effect has nothing to do with correct reproduction of the soundstage. Maybe if one day they discover an audience recording of the concert they'll do a surround version ;)

This post has been edited by Claude: 12 January 2005 - 10:29 AM

[Christiern]

Schaap is a running joke in professional jazz circles. Fortunately for all of us, he is now running in the opposite direction. I don't listen to his shows, but the last time I did, the found little time for the actual music and an abundance of time for palaverous pap and revisionist history.

He will always have his supporters, people who point to the rarity of so much air time devoted to Bird. I wish they would pause to think about it--imagine what such a show would be like if it focused on the music rather than the presenter's endless conjectures and desperate need for attention. Think about how much of that precious air time is wasted on the man's rants.

BTW, I agree with Claude, the noise on the Goodman reissue is inexcusable, because it is avoidable.

This post has been edited by Christiern: 12 January 2005 - 10:31 AM

[brownie]

I must say that when I was in New York last November, I tuned in on Schaap on Bird's show once. It was all talk and no music. I moved over!

[Big Al]

brownie, on Jan 12 2005, 09:38 AM, said:

I must say that when I was in New York last November, I tuned in on Schaap on Bird's show once. It was all talk and no music. I moved over!

The last Trane celebration was pretty much the same way.....

[MartyJazz]

Christiern, on Jan 12 2005, 10:29 AM, said:

Schaap is a running joke in professional jazz circles. Fortunately for all of us, he is now running in the opposite direction. I don't listen to his shows, but the last time I did, the found little time for the actual music and an abundance of time for palaverous pap and revisionist history.

He will always have his supporters, people who point to the rarity of so much air time devoted to Bird. I wish they would pause to think about it--imagine what such a show would be like if it focused on the music rather than the presenter's endless conjectures and desperate need for attention. Think about how much of that precious air time is wasted on the man's rants.

BTW, I agree with Claude, the noise on the Goodman reissue is inexcusable, because it is avoidable.

Shortly after the introduction of the Jazz Radio topic on this board, I myself had reason to rant about Mr. Schaap. Indulge me as I repeat just a brief snippet from a larger discussion concerning the positive nature of WKCR in general that concerns his ability as a jazz radio host:

"The one negative (about WCKR) and evidently I'm in a minority about this, considering all the acclaim the man gets, is the ubiquitous presence of Phil Schaap. I assume that per minute his show is on the air, there is still more of him talking than music being played. When I would drive to work in the morning (more than 11 years ago when I lived in the NYC metro area), I would put on his "Bird Flight" program. I could sometimes do the entire 20 minute commute without hearing a note from Bird, just anecdotes and questionable analyses galore from Mr. Schaap. (Mind you, this is a commercial-free radio station)! A friend of mine used to refer to him as Phil Schud-up already! What really bugged me is Schaap's implicit attitude that you, the listener, know nothing about the history of the music. Very patronizing IMO."

This post has been edited by MartyJazz: 12 January 2005 - 11:09 AM

[medjuck]

Claude, on Jan 12 2005, 10:26 AM, said:

deus62, on Jan 12 2005, 04:26 PM, said:

All arguments not withstanding, that Benny Goodman Carnegie release is still the best available (on CD). By far!

Have you heard the Definitive release? This is *said* to be the best version of the Carnegie Hall concert. Less noisier than the Schaap (extreme in this regard, even my 80 year old neighbour complained about the scratching sounds :)) and much clearer than the noisereduced earlier CBS CD reissue.

I agree about the Definitive disc. There's some controversy as to whether they had a different source or just doctored the Schaap cd. Whatever: the result is great. All you miss is some between numbers audience shuffling. (The same is true of their Charlie Christian live box.) I know they're dastardly pirates, but they seem to have good engineers.

BTW Since I brought it up: if you want a cd version of the correct take of Up & Down on which Clark Terry does his "Oh what fools these mortals be", it's on a cd devoted to Ralph Ellison. (I forget the title right now.)

[neveronfriday]

I don't know the Definitive rip-off (which it probably is), but I will surely check it out. If it's better, I'll get it.

Question: What I like about the Schaap one is that the high- and midtones are in there. Despite all that (irritating) noise, that made this reissue the best for me. All the other ones - and I've had plenty - seemed deficient in that department because of the noise-removal technology used which usually resulted in a more "dampened" sound.
So everyone is saying that they took extreme care removing the clicks but otherwise made sure that this important aspect of the recording remains intact (doesn't sound like Definitive to me, but it could be true)?

If yes, I'll certainly get it.

Did anyone have both and compare them on a decent sound system?

Cheers!

[medjuck]

I have both and I much prefer the Definitive. However that may be a matter of taste and my hearings shot from old age and too many rock and roll concerts.

[P.D.]

I rarely post anymore, and the instances of complaining to record companies is even less.. actually only once.. that was to Sony to complain about the Goodman Carnegie Hall set.. couldn't stand the surface noise which was much worse and more distracting thanearlier editions.

They did call me back, about two month later.. by which time I had calmed down..( sobered Up? :rolleyes: )

I can't believe Definitive spends much time cleaning up discs, though I think they must do a bit or else they have access to a lot of very clean LPs.. but I think based on the above coments I might investigate

But
Does the Definitive set include all the extra material that was on the Schaap issue?

This post has been edited by P.D.: 13 January 2005 - 03:19 PM

[medjuck]

P.D., on Jan 13 2005, 02:28 PM, said:

But Does the Definitive set include all the extra material that was on the Schaap issue?

Yes. Except for some audience and set-up noises-- to which I think Schaap assigned tracks (I'm not sure because I'm not at home where the cds are).

[montg]

I prefer the Carnegie concert produced by Avid--better by far than the crackling travesty produced by Sony.
goodman

BTW, I'm really annoyed by the Schapp version of the '56 concert too. The pauses, the long introductions (do we really need to hear a 4 minute spoken intro), the twisted programming..and I don't think the remastering is as spectacular as the press releases and hype would lead to believe.

This post has been edited by montg: 13 January 2005 - 04:59 PM

[medjuck]

I didn't know about the Avid release. Maybe that's what Definitive ripped-off. Anybody compare the 2 of them?

[l p]

P.D., on Jan 13 2005, 02:28 PM, said:

I rarely post anymore

that sucks.

[RZangpo2]

There are several threads on this subject. I'm adding my question to this one more or less at random. The reason for my post is to repeat a question that was asked some time ago, but was never answered.

To wit: those who've compared versions seem to agree that the Definitive and Avid issues are both better than the Sony. But between the Definitive and Avid issues themselves, which is better? Has anyone heard both? Please let me know before I spend more $$$ on this music!!!

EDIT: Sorry, this question is about the Goodman Carnegie Hall concert, not Ellington at Newport.

This post has been edited by RZangpo2: 22 July 2005 - 03:34 PM

[Clunky]

Big Al, on Jan 12 2005, 03:59 PM, said:

but does it bug the living hell out of anyone else the way the disc switches back and forth from stereo to mono, sometimes within the course of the same damn song? Especially on "Diminuendo & Crescendo!!!" Yet another Schaap travesty. What, consistent mono is a bad thing?

Idiot!!!! :angry:  :angry:  :angry:

I hadn'y noticed that, must listen again, my regret was that the immense impact of the original LP was reduced by the drawn out programming of the evening's music

This post has been edited by Clunky: 22 July 2005 - 03:51 PM

[jazzbo]

I still think this is one of the best reissues of the year it came out in. . . I still dig it out and groove to it.